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  1. #61

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced



    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Your earlier rant about tin foil hats, conspiracy theories, logic and reason was all bluster that you are unwilling or unable to defend? You do realize you were precisely telling everyone what "could not have happened" in that rant, or no?

    You are so flabbergasted that you cannot respond?

    And as for how "arguments work".... Neither side "knows" anything here (though you seem to be pretending that you do), and we are merely arguing over possibilities. We have some evidence and facts and we are tasked with trying to explain them. There are competing theories, and the "argument" is about how well the theories fit the facts/evidence. Your initial post was an attempt to undermine the competing theory, but it obviously failed. I would even go so far as to say that (based on all the evidence, some of which occurred since the incident) Occam's Razor supports my theory over yours, but of course that is also "arguable."
    Let me slow it down a bit. We all have to make our own judgments about uncertain events. Those judgments are ultimately subjective, but they are (or ought to be) formed by interpreting facts. Facts are objective; they are not arguable. Whatever the theory is that most closely hews to the facts is the one we ought to accept.

    You propose that we conjure a statement from our imagination and then place the burden of proving its falsehood on others. That's not building a conclusion based on facts and that's not how we should approach this discussion.

    The notion that a player would fake an injury over a period of years for any purpose is so far-fetched that it's going to require a lot of concrete evidence to even begin to be plausible. The fact that Drew Rosenhaus is Gaither's agent, or that medical diagnoses are not 100% certain, is not "concrete evidence." There is no direct link between Drew Rosenhaus and Gaither faking an injury; you would instead need to insert a supposition that Rosenhaus's presence somehow makes it more likely that Gaither would enter into a conspiracy to fake an injury and to get a doctor who will support a fake diagnosis, whether by quackery or more sinister motive. The "evidence" for the "fake injury" position is full of such suppositions.

    Multiple sources attest to Gaither's thoracic disc tear, most notably his doctor Robert Watkins, but also such a disinterested party as John Harbaugh: "“He’s got something in his back,” Harbaugh said. “It’s a very small tear. I don’t know the medical term for it. It’s not a serious thing, but it’s going to keep him out a couple weeks until it settles down;" there's also the fact that Gaither failed a physical with the Raiders because of his back; the fact that Gaither is currently not practicing with the Chargers because of an admitted back injury; and the unavoidably logical conclusion that no NFL player would want to take on the stigma of a rare, potentially incurable injury that might render them unable to play football ever again.

    I have no idea how Occam's Razor could ever support the former argument (fake injury, everyone was lying to cover it up) vs the latter (real injury, Dr. Watkins, Gaither, and Harbaugh were all telling the truth.) There may be uncertainty involved, but uncertainty in itself means nothing. The world is uncertain.





  2. #62
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    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    Well, I just couldn't resist peeking into this Dead Horse Abuse marathon, and now I've been sucked right into the vortex ...sigh...

    Frankly, I don't care at this point whether Gaither was faking/exaggerating injuries or not. As someone pointed out, it's San Diego's problem now. And I will confess to feeling a touch of schadenfreude when I read about his latest issues vis-a-vis the Chargers. Gaither seemed to have such huge promise as a long term LT for the Ravens, and our frustration as fans became equally huge when it all came undone. For me ...rightly or wrongly ...that frustration carries over to the extent that I find myself NOT wanting him to succeed with San Diego or with any other NFL team. Maybe that's a bit harsh and maybe I'll feel differently in the long run, but I can't help but feel that Gaither's own lack of commitment to proper conditioning and his questionable work ethic were in large measure to blame for what has happened to him.

    I guess there is one silver lining, at least for the moment. It's taken our collective mind off Bryant McKinnie.




  3. #63

    Re: Jared Haynesworth...er, Gaither @ it again

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    you guys realize this goes against what people say about him. that he faked an injury because he didnt want to play RT or wanted a contract... hes their unquestioned LT and he just signed a 4 year deal. if anything its more proof that he had the injury to begin with and even better, more proof that we made the right call by letting him go.
    This. Why is there a four page thread on the subject though? Today is our first preseason game and the most active thread is about a guy who hasn't been a Raven for over a year




  4. #64
    Exactly. And hasn't been a Raven for a while now.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2




  5. #65
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    Re: Jared Haynesworth...er, Gaither @ it again

    Quote Originally Posted by NjRavensFan View Post
    This. Why is there a four page thread on the subject though? Today is our first preseason game and the most active thread is about a guy who hasn't been a Raven for over a year
    You haven't heard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    What's the over/under on how many pages this thread will go?
    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    5 minimum...
    "What would you give for the man beside you?"





  6. #66

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Let me slow it down a bit. We all have to make our own judgments about uncertain events. Those judgments are ultimately subjective, but they are (or ought to be) formed by interpreting facts. Facts are objective; they are not arguable. Whatever the theory is that most closely hews to the facts is the one we ought to accept.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    You propose that we conjure a statement from our imagination and then place the burden of proving its falsehood on others. That's not building a conclusion based on facts and that's not how we should approach this discussion.
    No. I am 'conjuring' no more than you are. People fake/exaggerate injuries, or are you denying this ever occurs? What kind of players fake injuries when injuries are faked/exaggerated? Lazy and/or disgruntled players.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    The notion that a player would fake an injury over a period of years for any purpose is so far-fetched that it's going to require a lot of concrete evidence to even begin to be plausible.
    So you keep asserting, never once supporting your assertion. What part of "man, I don't want to practice....oooh, oooh, my back (or hammy, etc) is acting up" do you not understand? Not plausible? It occurs for sure, so why is it not plausible in this case? If anything, considering the track record and circumstances, it is as plausible as it ever gets. As for "concrete evidence," what exactly did you have in mind, i.e. what would you need in order to consider someone might be milking an injury?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    The fact that Drew Rosenhaus is Gaither's agent, or that medical diagnoses are not 100% certain, is not "concrete evidence."
    Of course these things are evidence. They are evidence that a) Gaither has an agent, who like (or moreso than) all agents is predisposed to keep the players happy and do whatever they can to support the player in player vs team issues; and b) your constant insistence that the medical world has definitively concluded that Gaither was seriously injured (despite the fact the Ravens docs disagreed, and even Gaither's doc's diagnosis didn't warrant multiple months on the sideline) is unfounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    There is no direct link between Drew Rosenhaus and Gaither faking an injury; you would instead need to insert a supposition that Rosenhaus's presence somehow makes it more likely that Gaither would enter into a conspiracy to fake an injury and to get a doctor who will support a fake diagnosis, whether by quackery or more sinister motive. The "evidence" for the "fake injury" position is full of such suppositions.
    Nope. My mention of Rosenhaus was simply to say he is one of the biggest most well-connected agents around, who is especially known to coddle his players (egos included). In other words, his claims that Gaither is/was injured are completely irrelevant when you realize he will claim whatever Jared wants him to claim; i.e. no conspiracy needed for their claims to match. The evidence for the truly injured position is as full or more full of suppositions, which is why there is even a debate to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Multiple sources attest to Gaither's thoracic disc tear, most notably his doctor Robert Watkins, but also such a disinterested party as John Harbaugh: "“He’s got something in his back,” Harbaugh said. “It’s a very small tear. I don’t know the medical term for it. It’s not a serious thing, but it’s going to keep him out a couple weeks until it settles down;"
    Already explained Watkins, and explained the Ravens position. Unfortunately both situations support my argument because Jared did not in fact come back from the 'not serious thing' (that didn't show on any test) in a 'couple weeks,' he in fact never came back (until he was put on IR months later). Your task isn't to support the idea Jared had a minor boo-boo, because who cares if he did? Your task is to support the idea he was so injured he had to miss 3 months of time from something that neither doctor could find on any test and neither doctor thought should take that long to heal. You also have to, but seem to fail to, realize that doctors normally do not call patients liars, even if gun-to-head they would admit they thought so. When Gaither first complained of back pain/injury is there any chance at all Harbaugh, at that time, would accuse Gaither of milking/faking it? There was a chance Gaither would be back in time to play; Gaither was still a part of the teams future plans; i.e. there is no chance, regardless of what anyone truly thought, that they were going to call Jared out at that early time. Just as teams rarely ever publicly call out any player who refuses to practice because of nebulous injuries in the middle of disputes (or in general); accusing someone of faking/lying essentially eliminates the possibility of any kind of peaceful future.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    there's also the fact that Gaither failed a physical with the Raiders because of his back; the fact that Gaither is currently not practicing with the Chargers because of an admitted back injury; and the unavoidably logical conclusion that no NFL player would want to take on the stigma of a rare, potentially incurable injury that might render them unable to play football ever again.
    There is also the fact that the Raiders signing was sketchy from the getgo, as the Raiders announced the deal then immediately Rosenhaus said they had not agreed to terms (not the other way around). Who knows what happened after that, but we do know the Raiders did not want to sign him. They said he failed his physical, that is one way to torpedo the tentative deal (for either side in fact). Of course you do realize that the eminent Dr. Watkins had just signed off on Gaither's health days before the Raiders failed him, or no? And of course, Gaither then, one week later, passed the Chiefs physical. So I guess Gaither is constantly suffering serious injuries one week then miraculously healing the next, then re-injuring, then healing, all while not participating in any practices? Possible, sure, but excuse me for the doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I have no idea how Occam's Razor could ever support the former argument (fake injury, everyone was lying to cover it up) vs the latter (real injury, Dr. Watkins, Gaither, and Harbaugh were all telling the truth.) There may be uncertainty involved, but uncertainty in itself means nothing. The world is uncertain.
    Easily. "Everyone" lying = Gaither lying (and to be fair, exaggerating/milking can be included). Why would Gaither lie? Same reason any player who feigns or exaggerates injuries lie, to get out of practice or pout in the middle of a dispute with their team. No 'cover up' needed whatsoever no matter how many times you keep claiming it.

    The former requires me to believe Gaither would lie about an injury to get out of pracitice. Period. That is all it requires and it occurs in all sports with more people than Jared.

    The latter requires me to believe Gaither's established lazy work ethic (from Friedgen at MD on) never existed or was fixed, that Gaither's mysterious 'foot' injury the first day of mini-camp to get out of practice never happened, that Gaithers 'not serious', minor, undetectable injury somehow would take more than a calendar year to heal and will come and go randomly from here on out, coinciding with practice schedules or contract negotiations always in a way that prevents Gaither from practicing (especially when he was pissed) but allows him to entertain offers from teams.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 08-10-2012 at 07:01 PM.




  7. #67

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    Just to see if Gaither was a topic here.... and found gold.

    Well, here is a new article on the big man. I laugh because this is a story the Ravens had to deal with, and I'm glad we're not afflicted with his afflictions anymore.

    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...ward-recovery/

    This was the best quote:
    Gaither missed his 14th straight practice Wednesday, not participating since July 28 when he suffered what were described as back spasms in the team's weight room. It's the most curious and, for its mystery and importance of the man afflicted, maybe the most concerning of the Chargers' injuries in training camp.
    Have fun, San Diego!
    After 5 years of early exits, the journey is finally complete.




  8. #68

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    I find it to be no coincidence that this injury is surrounded by nearly as much mystery as the previous one.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #69

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I find it to be no coincidence that this injury is surrounded by nearly as much mystery as the previous one.
    *evil laugh*

    There is no difference between a faked injury and an exaggerated injury, really.

    Poor baby, I guess he'll have to sit in the tub and sign his name on the paychecks. Maybe if he has the tub at home he could have champagne, too.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  10. #70

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    Jared's consulting his own doctors now. Sound familiar?

    Enjoy, Y'all!

    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...et-back-field/




  11. #71
    So, when do we stop talking about this guy?

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2




  12. #72

    Re: OT: Gaither Still hasn't practiced

    Gaither won't return until he's 100%.
    And you better not question his motivation to practice!

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...tion/#comments




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