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  1. #73
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)



    F em all.

    Go with college rules and bring up college refs.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  2. #74
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    NCR--
    Hey! from Hickory!!!




  3. #75
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Hoculi is one of many who are similarly situated. Most of these refs are just like him and are demanding the same salary bump.

    So I'm not sure why the figure of 3% is being used by you. That number is the standard cost of living increase. The NFLRA is asking for far more than that.

    Edit -- Confirmed. The union wants upwards of a 20% increase in just the first year should they stay part time.

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/footba...medium=twitter
    That's just salary. They also want huge pension increases. Why they should get a pension for a part time job is beyond me. Pat Kirwin was saying that the refs proposal would give them higher pensions than the players.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  4. #76
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    That's just salary. They also want huge pension increases. Why they should get a pension for a part time job is beyond me. Pat Kirwin was saying that the refs proposal would give them higher pensions than the players.
    That's a good point.

    So now add on even more potential costs that will get passed on to the fans.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #77
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    That's just salary. They also want huge pension increases. Why they should get a pension for a part time job is beyond me. Pat Kirwin was saying that the refs proposal would give them higher pensions than the players.
    Great point...added to HoustonRaven's first-class post(s). IMO the NFL doesn't want to deal with the refs, letting things get completely out of hand with every contract, like MLB does with the players association. Keeping the refs as part-timers, they (NFL) can keep some sort of control on costs, just like they are doing with draftees. While some fans are saying "I don't mind paying 7 or 8 bucks more", I wonder how they'll feel paying 40 - 50 dollars more in future... Bc




  6. #78
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by BcRaven View Post
    Great point...added to HoustonRaven's first-class post(s). IMO the NFL doesn't want to deal with the refs, letting things get completely out of hand with every contract, like MLB does with the players association. Keeping the refs as part-timers, they (NFL) can keep some sort of control on costs, just like they are doing with draftees. While some fans are saying "I don't mind paying 7 or 8 bucks more", I wonder how they'll feel paying 40 - 50 dollars more in future... Bc
    Just a small caveat to my points ....

    The NFL WANTS full time officials, so they not averse to spending a little money on that front. Ideally, they'd like to start with one full time ref per crew, making something commensurate to what the MLB umpires make (approx $115,000 a year) then eventually phasing in all of them as full time refs.

    What they desperately DO NOT want is what the NFLRA is proposing -- going full time, but salaries that compensate their loss of their outside of football full time jobs. Many of these refs have highly lucrative jobs away from football so they'd like their NFL salaries to go from $70,000 (which is the max) a year to upwards of $300,000 a year.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #79
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Petard View Post
    IMHO, "smart, prudent business owners" have been known to absorb costs. And I think they do tend to maximize profits, but usually within a sensible business model. Mr. Bisciotti and the other owners can whine all they want about how the cost of doing business rises each season, but I'd be willing to bet they have folks on their staffs that assess stuff like the "increased ticket price" line across which they do not want to cross lest they start seeing reduced sales.
    We will have to agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Petard View Post
    On yours and jd's comments, I have to ask for your opinions on why the NFLRA thinks that in the real world, a guy should be able to demand and receive the sweetheart deal that you describe in Hoculi's example? I may be overlooking the obvious (and that's often par for my game!), but why would not the NFL just hire "new" guys to officiate under a "fair" compensation system and tell the current batch of moonlighters, "See ya, thanks, and best wishes at your other full-time job?"
    They cannot simply fire the officials because they are in a union, thus covered under the laws of the NLRB. You cannot fire workers that you, as an owner, are locking out.

    As for the deal they seek, I don't see the NFL caving at all, nor should they. The league has a chance to finally make better an officiating system that's woefully lacking compared to the other major sporting leagues. If that means digging in and playing a few games with replacement refs, I think they are prepared to do so.

    We, as fans, are not going to like it much. Games are going to be decided on bad calls for the first few weeks. Some teams will benefit, some will suffer.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  8. #80

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    It looks like gamesmanship on the part of the referees. I suspect they are prepared to drop the demand for a pay increase, or the demand to remain part time, but it *really* looks from the outside looking in like they are not really at the bargaining table.

    Not nearly as interesting as the NFLPA work stoppage was.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  9. #81
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Houston-
    I confess I have not taken time to read substantial amounts about the entire NFL-NFLRA conflict, but you posted --

    "The NFL WANTS full time officials, so they not averse to spending a little money on that front. Ideally, they'd like to start with one full time ref per crew, making something commensurate to what the MLB umpires make (approx $115,000 a year) then eventually phasing in all of them as full time refs.

    What they desperately DO NOT want is what the NFLRA is proposing -- going full time, but salaries that compensate their loss of their outside of football full time jobs..."

    Notwithstanding our agreement to disagree on the cost absorption business model, I think we violently agree on the other issues!




  10. #82

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    If anyone could be so kind to cut and paste Peter Kings tweets from tje past hour, you will see what the real issues are and who is being difficult. I am on my phone and can't do it.

    Seems that they had a deal, until the ref rep squashed it at the last second.

    Also seems the main issue is the pensions, not salary. I think someone mentioned that on this thread earlier. Oh and the league gave up another million in salary as well, before the union lawyers killed it




  11. #83

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    I think the NFLRA backed out of the old demands (and raised them) because they were encouraged by the media-fueled criticism of the replacement refs. They keep hearing the new refs are a disaster, they think their bargaining power will increase when these "disasters" occur in regular season games, and they are willing to bet on that chance.

    Personally, I think they are wrong (about the extent of the "disaster"), but it also depends on the media. The media normally gives the refs a pass (the old refs), probably because harping on their mistakes undermines the game (which is their livelihood). But with replacement refs, when the media harps on mistakes, it undermines only the replacement refs (and the league's stance in the labor battle), not the whole game (if it were only played under the old refs, etc).

    I think the replacement refs are not affecting the outcomes of the games any more than the old refs (and probably even less), but the sample size of games I have seen is very small. I think they are certainly adding delays (sorting spots and calls etc), and screwing up the over-the-mic explanations. But those things should improve over time.

    It will interesting to see who gives in once the season starts. But the NFLRA, with its latest shenanigans, probably just made the league more determined to stand pat.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 09-02-2012 at 01:11 PM.




  12. #84
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    I don't twitter, tweet, or twat, but this link has some information as well as an interview with Scott Green, the NFLRA prez. From the link -
    "On Sunday, Peter King of SI.com reported on Twitter that he had received a memo from the NFL. The memo was sent to all 32 teams, and it outlined the league's version of the details of that negotiation.

    According to King, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and NFLRA negotiator Jeff Triplette hammered out the particulars of a deal last Thursday and Friday that would give the officials an additional $1 million per year. At that point, NFLRA President Scott Green walked in the room, said that Triplette had "no authority" to broker a deal, and the talks came to a close."

    This all sounds a little brassiere to me....

    footnote: Just saw this piece with more info.




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