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  1. #97

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)



    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Watched Florio on the NBC sports network earlier today... I think I agree with his take. The league has all the leverage here. The NFL fan base is not going to stop watching football over this, so it's not going to affect the league's bottom line. As long as the money keeps rolling in, does the league really care? Maybe one or two owners who get schlonged on calls will moan, but unless it happens to a lot of them, I don't see them caving.
    Teams get schlonged on calls with the old refs. The actual effect-on-outcome mistakes aren't seriously worse. If the refs mis-administer 3 penalties for 5 yards each (and again, these are inexcusable and could/should go away soon) that is like calling one dubious/bad late hit foul (on sideline or spear, etc). In short it is fairly negligible relative to the dozens of other bigger calls that are required (PI, roughings, automatic firsts, turnover calls, etc).

    Admittedly I stopped watching tonight's game about at the end of the third, but up to that point, the mistaken on-the-field calls that were not reviewed/overturned were one short PI (very dubious), one brief offensive holding (dubious but possibly called by old refs), and the most important one, a mistaken fumble recovery (imo) awarded to the Falcons. The last one was the kind of thing that truly affects games, and the number of them is not much, if any, greater from what I have seen. I think people simply forget how many such calls were made every game in the past.

    The increased time it is taking to play the games due to all the double-checking on spots is the biggest thing in terms of "spoiling" the product.




  2. #98

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Yeah, agree on all counts Haloti92. I think it's bad (I thought I was hearing things when the ref called the foul on '93 red' earlier, til I saw it on PFT as well), but I don't think it's anywhere near bad enough for the league to cave. As someone pointed out above, the league will just resort to other measures to maintain control, be it fines/suspensions/whatever.




  3. #99

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    How is your argument affected by assuming that the replacement refs get as "good" as the old refs in 8 weeks? How is it affected by assuming that the NFL suffers negligibly in their bottomline during the "training" period of the new refs? What happens when you give in here, admitting that the old refs are "integral" and then they ask for $300M next year?

    The league will set a very bad precedent by giving in, and the way this has panned out so far, I suspect the old refs will make it very hard to reach a deal.

    I think the league will tough it out a little while longer, but it won't do any good if it doesn't address some of the problems that have arisen due to the replacement officials; and I am talking about problems above and beyond the quality of the actual penalty-calling. The actual penalty-calling is way way less worse than people claim. Sure they are making mistakes, but nowhere near the calamitous numbers it sounds like listening to people whinge uncontrollably after their team loses.

    1. They need to "force" these officials to learn these basic administration issues, even if it means mandatory mid-week written tests and fines/termination for failing them. Not knowing how to walk off multiple, offsetting obscure fouls is one thing, but failing to walk off the correct yardage for a basic defnsive holding or offensive pass interference is another. Semi-avid fans would never screw up the latter, and these guys are getting paid.

    2. They need to absolutely demand these new officials start ejecting these out-of-line reactions, by both players and coaches. Hell, they should pay the refs bonuses to do so if they have to. It is plainly obvious that the players and coaches are taking advantage of the situation. They go apoplectic over numerous fouls that often were called correctly, and they bump the officials and walk onto the field, etc. Ejections are in order, but the new refs are too scared to do it. Obviously everyone will criticize them for it, so they can't "win" in the situation either way, but they lose less if they employ an iron fist.

    3. The league should also fine players and coaches for such over-the-top outbursts and criticisms in the media. They do it with the other refs, they should do it with these refs.
    I agree with most of your point here...but I think we are looking at a long time before these replacement refs are "as good" as our regular refs (which still leave a lot to be desired...but they are humans trying to ref a game that is the fastest on the planet on one of the largest playing fields on the planet). As for your points (once again just playing devils advocate...I just want the best product on the field...don't care how it happens):
    1. The NFL rulebook is 244 pages. You just aren't going to learn this thing overnight. There is a reason we have lawyers, accountants, etc...on the field. The tend to be intelligient people and can digest large amounts of information and typically can make decisions in stressful situations. Once again, the NFL rulebook is 244 pages, complete technical text. If you or I started studying it today I argue it would take us at least 4 years to "pass a test" on all the rules. Thinking of it as taking the bar exam or a CPA exam. There is a reason there is a guy with headphones on talking to these replacement officials...they don't know all 244 pages.
    2. I see your point with the ejections. But lets assume this becomes reality. How many players would have gotten ejected this week? I would argue at least 6-8. Players were becoming very "chirpy" in many games, coaches were dropping f bombs (and many had a point). start ejecting them and the league starts to give the view that it is becoming out of control. Imagine...you turn on ESPN and you watch 8 guys getting ejected in a week...it will just show more than ever that the refs don't have control...and Goodell will have a very full desk from many teams complaining of ejections.
    The 300 million dollar example is unreasonable...the refs know they have a bit of leverage here in that are being paid 1/200th of the 9 billion dollar pie. 100 million dollar raise gets them 1/90th of the pie. They won't go for more than this because they know they are maximizing their leverage and piece of the pie for what they bring to the business model/structural system of the NFL. Once again, big numbers here but look at it from a percentage standpoint. Look at some of the players contracts...100 million dollars divided by 32 teams is about 3 million per team.
    Once again, I don't care how this gets worked out, but it needs done. GO RAVENS!
    By the way, here is the link to the NFL rulebook, good luck to replacement refs and you can start to see why we are having issues.
    http://static.nfl.com/static/content..._Rule_Book.pdf
    Last edited by jd345; 09-17-2012 at 11:28 PM.




  4. #100

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by jd345 View Post
    I agree with most of your point here...but I think we are looking at a long time before these replacement refs are "as good" as our regular refs (which still leave a lot to be desired...but they are humans trying to ref a game that is the fastest on the planet on one of the largest playing fields on the planet). As for your points (once again just playing devils advocate...I just want the best product on the field...don't care how it happens):
    1. The NFL rulebook is 244 pages. You just aren't going to learn this thing overnight. There is a reason we have lawyers, accountants, etc...on the field. The tend to be intelligient people and can digest large amounts of information and typically can make decisions in stressful situations. Once again, the NFL rulebook is 244 pages, complete technical text. If you or I started studying it today I argue it would take us at least 4 years to "pass a test" on all the rules. Thinking of it as taking the bar exam or a CPA exam. There is a reason there is a guy with headphones on talking to these replacement officials...they don't know all 244 pages.
    2. I see your point with the ejections. But lets assume this becomes reality. How many players would have gotten ejected this week? I would argue at least 6-8. Players were becoming very "chirpy" in many games, coaches were dropping f bombs (and many had a point). start ejecting them and the league starts to give the view that it is becoming out of control. Imagine...you turn on ESPN and you watch 8 guys getting ejected in a week...it will just show more than ever that the refs don't have control...and Goodell will have a very full desk from many teams complaining of ejections.
    The 300 million dollar example is unreasonable...the refs know they have a bit of leverage here in that are being paid 1/200th of the 9 billion dollar pie. 100 million dollar raise gets them 1/90th of the pie. They won't go for more than this because they know they are maximizing their leverage and piece of the pie for what they bring to the business model/structural system of the NFL. Once again, big numbers here but look at it from a percentage standpoint. Look at some of the players contracts...100 million dollars divided by 32 teams is about 3 million per team.
    Once again, I don't care how this gets worked out, but it needs done. GO RAVENS!
    These refs do not need to learn the 244 pages to be as "good" as the old refs, because a vast majority of the 244 pages is the same as the rulebook they already know, and some of the parts they don't know are obscure nonsense that occurs a handful of times all season, if that. And even if they mess up such obscure stuff it becomes statistical "noise" in the thousands of other routine calls they make. The reason we know these new refs do not "know" the playbook is not because we have seen them mess up a complicated "leverage" call on a FG, etc, it is because they have repeatedly awarded 10 frickin yards for a defensive holding.They need a crash course on the aspect of the NFL game that is different from the other levels of football. How many yards is defensive holding? 5 yards in the NFL not 10. Frickin learn it, frickin test them. Start with the basics.

    As for the ejections...who cares? People want these refs to act like the old refs, then eject away, that is what the old refs would do when widespread mutiny occurs on the field. See Ravens at Detroit in 2005. The players and coaches have to be forced to stop these instances where they ignore the refs authority. It can only be forced by the refs themselves through harsh on-the-field penalties/ejections, and/or it can be forced by the league through fines. The rioting and public complaining won't stop otherwise, and it was never tolerated by the old refs or the league under the old refs.

    As for the $300M being unreasonable, I don't see how you can say that considering you are arguing they are "integral" and without them the league is falling apart. You say $100M is reasonable and $300M is unreasonable, how about $200M? Determining the value is crucial. And the profit-level of the league should have zero bearing on that value. The old officials did job X and made Y mistakes and got paid Z per game (more than other leagues' officials per game), just because the league makes a lot more money why is X,Y,Z suddenly worth a lot more? Plus this is about more than pure money. There are other issues that the sides are held up on, namely open-ended pensions and full-time duties, and accountablility (grading and getting rid of bad officials, etc).

    Bottomline is I agree that the league can afford to pay the officials more, I see a lot of potential problems if they cave this easily and set that precendent, I think the situation is nowhere near as bad as the whining and piling on indicates especially in terms of losing revenue, and I think things will improve more quickly than is assumed (these people have only reffed 6 NFL games, and 4 were preseason games where their mistakes weren't as seriously monitored).
    Last edited by Haloti92; 09-17-2012 at 11:49 PM.




  5. #101
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by jd345 View Post
    I agree with most of your point here...but I think we are looking at a long time before these replacement refs are "as good" as our regular refs (which still leave a lot to be desired...but they are humans trying to ref a game that is the fastest on the planet on one of the largest playing fields on the planet). As for your points (once again just playing devils advocate...I just want the best product on the field...don't care how it happens):
    1. The NFL rulebook is 244 pages. You just aren't going to learn this thing overnight. There is a reason we have lawyers, accountants, etc...on the field. The tend to be intelligient people and can digest large amounts of information and typically can make decisions in stressful situations. Once again, the NFL rulebook is 244 pages, complete technical text. If you or I started studying it today I argue it would take us at least 4 years to "pass a test" on all the rules. Thinking of it as taking the bar exam or a CPA exam. There is a reason there is a guy with headphones on talking to these replacement officials...they don't know all 244 pages.
    2. I see your point with the ejections. But lets assume this becomes reality. How many players would have gotten ejected this week? I would argue at least 6-8. Players were becoming very "chirpy" in many games, coaches were dropping f bombs (and many had a point). start ejecting them and the league starts to give the view that it is becoming out of control. Imagine...you turn on ESPN and you watch 8 guys getting ejected in a week...it will just show more than ever that the refs don't have control...and Goodell will have a very full desk from many teams complaining of ejections.
    The 300 million dollar example is unreasonable...the refs know they have a bit of leverage here in that are being paid 1/200th of the 9 billion dollar pie. 100 million dollar raise gets them 1/90th of the pie. They won't go for more than this because they know they are maximizing their leverage and piece of the pie for what they bring to the business model/structural system of the NFL. Once again, big numbers here but look at it from a percentage standpoint. Look at some of the players contracts...100 million dollars divided by 32 teams is about 3 million per team.
    Once again, I don't care how this gets worked out, but it needs done. GO RAVENS!
    By the way, here is the link to the NFL rulebook, good luck to replacement refs and you can start to see why we are having issues.
    http://static.nfl.com/static/content..._Rule_Book.pdf
    This whole post is extremely exaggerated to the point of parody. The replacement refs are missing really obvious calls and things that an average football fan would know. Comparing training to become a ref to becoming a lawyer or doctor is hilarious. The only rule I can remember that really was obscure as hell and amazing that the ref knew it was in the Ravens-Titans game in 2006 when the titans had a fake punt called back because of a 2 minute convoluted explanation of some rule that was broken.




  6. #102

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    This whole post is extremely exaggerated to the point of parody. The replacement refs are missing really obvious calls and things that an average football fan would know. Comparing training to become a ref to becoming a lawyer or doctor is hilarious. The only rule I can remember that really was obscure as hell and amazing that the ref knew it was in the Ravens-Titans game in 2006 when the titans had a fake punt called back because of a 2 minute convoluted explanation of some rule that was broken.
    Never said Doctor (way more important than a ref and requires more study)...just lawyers and accountants...and I would argue that it is harder to become an NFL ref than either a lawyer or accountant. "Basic" Requirements to be an NFL ref:
    1. 10 years of Collegiate officiating experience...at least five at Division I-the basic requirement. There is a reason all refs are at least middle aged out there- it takes that much experience to get even remotely qualified for the NFL level.
    2. Pass a 75 question rules test and 200 question "case study test"- they give you situations that happen on the field and you must say what the ruling is.
    3. Psychological Testing- meant to make sure you can handle stressful situations with 70,000 people watching you live and millions around the world. Also must be able to handle 300 pound athletes flying around you in helmets and pads while you were an zebra stripes suit and not want to run in the opposite direction (little humor there).
    4. Pass a physical test (not all that easy more than likely as by now these people are middle aged and must keep up with athletes in their 20's...or at least try to).
    5. Have their financial security examined- if you are not in good financial shape then you are not going to be an NFL ref. People that are not in great "financial shape" are more likely than others to be influenced to make calls based off "personal monetary gains." Basically you are more likely to cheat. Officials are officially banned from even visiting Las Vegas and Atlantic City during the season.
    6. Many in season requirements I won't get into here.
    Also, was just reading this evening the NFL is toying with an idea of establishing an NFL training academy to get refs on the field in a shorter amount of time. It would be a 4 year training academy (sounds a lot like college for refs).




  7. #103

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    We blasted the regular refs for years and I can comfortably say that we now want them back desperately (from a fan perspective).
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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