Referee Lockout (Merged)

[HoustonRaven]

The unfairness comes from the fact that as much as people like to bitch about the regular refs, they are actually pretty consistent and have high degrees of accuracy in their calls. These jokers they've trotted out are wildly inconsistent and don't call the game with nearly the same reliability as the regulars.

Perhaps. But the Arizona gaffes aside, I didn't see any huge drop off in terms of quality.

I'm waiting this one out to see if it's really that much of an impact. If this lock out means that 2-3 seasons down the road we have improved quality, I'm ok with a little growing pains.

[mfdoom42]

If they asked for anything more than they were getting, they should be ashamed. There's only two jobs that I can think of where you never have to worry about being right - a weatherman and and NFL referee.

You're kidding yourself if you honestly think the NFL refs aren't some of the best officials in any sport on the planet. Officiating is ridiculously difficult both because a) you have to watch for small details in a large area of responsibility and b) at least 50% of people are going to hate you at any given time, regardless of whether you were correct or not. I used to ref under-18 rec league sports and I stopped because of how insane the fans (i.e. parents) were. If anything, the NFL rule book is responsible for 50%+ of officiating issues in the league today, the regular refs are not the problem.

Also, it is ridiculous that the biggest sport in America is the only major sport without full-time, year-round referees.

[Beau Petard]

Houston-
I didn't get a chance to see the game due to the plethora of inneresting channel offerings that excluded the Ravens down here in the Greater Hickory Metropolitan Area, but I see a few posts talking about how Flacco got nailed when he was on the ground. To provide one answer to your question, it's possible that we could see some very untimely injuries around the league to their "star" products if some of the officials are not up to the task. That being said, however, any thoughts on my response below to mf-42?

mf-42--
I agree completely. Why does a nearly $10 BILLION per year business tighten their sphincter(s) on such a critical element of their product? And by one report, it's a difference of about $16 million over a 5 year span. Something just doesn't smell right...

[wickedsolo]

i watched the game on NFL Network last night and almost fell out of my chair when this was not a penalty

Me too.


PSU - totally agree. These refs are going to get someone hurt.

[psuasskicker]

Could you go into detail about what exactly the "cheap ass owners" are offering the refs?

Here is a handy site which can help you do some solid research on the subject.

If everyone gets shitty refs, where's the unfairness?

It's not about being unfair, it's about creating imbalance. Overall things may even out over the course of the year in terms of missed calls for each team. The problem is, some teams could have one or two games swung by those missed calls, which completely changes the complexion of the season.

- C -

[Jayc00]

I agree that these replacement refs are horrible, but I also don't think that the regular refs deserve a raise especially after the last two horrible seasons that they had. That's a win win situation...get full time pay for half a years worth of work, do a bad job at it and still bitch for a raise and more benifits.

[NC Raven]

Flacco wasn't one of the chosen few of the regular refs, so they may not've called it either. I wonder if the replacement refs will treat Brady like the regular ones, by not allowing anyone to get close.

Replacement refs will penalize all contact with Tom Brady, and even help pick up blitzes when necessary to achieve the NFL's Prime Directive.

[NOLARavenFAN]

The preseason is about avoiding injury, so TE would be the main concern right now,

[TheJoeFlaccoShow]

Just was watching Monday Night Countdown and Mort had a couple of interesting things about the stalemate regarding the officials.

1. NFL is adamant they want to make the refs full time, ref union is refusing.

2. NFL also wants the ability to remove low performing officials from crews, of course ref union is refusing.

Now on the first one, most of these refs have lucrative jobs outside of the NFL (compared to what they make for calling games, although if you break it down by hour it is about $1,000 an hour average). So they are resisting I'm guessing for that reason.

On the second one, obviously that is more of a protection tactic that most unions use for any employees no matter what the field. They want to hide any bad employees, and have no repercussions for poor performance. In their delusional minds no employee should ever be disciplined, reprimanded or demoted for anything.

[Ravenswintitle]

Come on man featured mostly officiating blunders too.

[jd345]

Just was watching Monday Night Countdown and Mort had a couple of interesting things about the stalemate regarding the officials.

1. NFL is adamant they want to make the refs full time, ref union is refusing.

2. NFL also wants the ability to remove low performing officials from crews, of course ref union is refusing.

Now on the first one, most of these refs have lucrative jobs outside of the NFL (compared to what they make for calling games, although if you break it down by hour it is about $1,000 an hour average). So they are resisting I'm guessing for that reason.

On the second one, obviously that is more of a protection tactic that most unions use for any employees no matter what the field. They want to hide any bad employees, and have no repercussions for poor performance. In their delusional minds no employee should ever be disciplined, reprimanded or demoted for anything.

I totally agree with number one above, lets make the refs full time. With that said there is a "huge" problem here. NFL Refs, depending on their seniority, make anywhere from $25,000 to $75,000 for a sixteen game season. Not bad money (more than many people make with a full time job) but for these guys I am sure it is no more than supplemental income and they referee because they enjoy it and the "respect and prestige" that comes from their peers within their full time realm of work from being an NFL ref. Most of these guys are lawyers, accountants, small business owners, or have other high paying jobs.
To compare, I did some research on other sports (data from 2009 seasons) and the average pay by sport for referees was:
NBA: 128,000 a year
NHL: 138,000 a year
MLB: 141,000 a year
In my opinion, the current NFL refs will accept no where near these salaries for working full time as the other sports (although they are working way less games). Back to the point, most of these guys have very high paying jobs outside of the NFL. If a referee is a lawyer, as many are, and are making $750,000 a year why in hell would they take a full time job paying 150,000 (or $300,000 for that matter). I want full time refs as bad as anyone but there are some major hurdles that would need to be worked out before it ever happens.
As for #2 above, if you suck at your job and suck consistently over a prolonged period of time (not just a mistake here or there) then you should be fired, period. I feel for them in regards to the speed of the game and the awesome responsibility they have every Sunday but if you can't call the game properly or fairly, then you need to go.

[steelerhater]

I totally agree with number one above, lets make the refs full time. With that said there is a "huge" problem here. NFL Refs, depending on their seniority, make anywhere from $25,000 to $75,000 for a sixteen game season. Not bad money (more than many people make with a full time job) but for these guys I am sure it is no more than supplemental income and they referee because they enjoy it and the "respect and prestige" that comes from their peers within their full time realm of work from being an NFL ref. Most of these guys are lawyers, accountants, small business owners, or have other high paying jobs.
To compare, I did some research on other sports (data from 2009 seasons) and the average pay by sport for referees was:
NBA: 128,000 a year
NHL: 138,000 a year
MLB: 141,000 a year
In my opinion, the current NFL refs will accept no where near these salaries for working full time as the other sports (although they are working way less games). Back to the point, most of these guys have very high paying jobs outside of the NFL. If a referee is a lawyer, as many are, and are making $750,000 a year why in hell would they take a full time job paying 150,000 (or $300,000 for that matter). I want full time refs as bad as anyone but there are some major hurdles that would need to be worked out before it ever happens.
As for #2 above, if you suck at your job and suck consistently over a prolonged period of time (not just a mistake here or there) then you should be fired, period. I feel for them in regards to the speed of the game and the awesome responsibility they have every Sunday but if you can't call the game properly or fairly, then you need to go.

That's the problem. The NFL should fire all of their current referees and then recruit and hire full-time officials. Get the lawyers, etc. out of there. I have enough hate for lawyers as it is, so I don't need them messing up football games to add to it. I don't know how (except that they can do it on a part-time basis) that being a lawyer qualifies you to be an NFL official. There's plenty of guys coming out of college that actually played the game, but don't make it in the NFL. Let them have a shot at the job on a full-time basis.

[jd345]

That's the problem. The NFL should fire all of their current referees and then recruit and hire full-time officials. Get the lawyers, etc. out of there. I have enough hate for lawyers as it is, so I don't need them messing up football games to add to it. I don't know how (except that they can do it on a part-time basis) that being a lawyer qualifies you to be an NFL official. There's plenty of guys coming out of college that actually played the game, but don't make it in the NFL. Let them have a shot at the job on a full-time basis.

Just playing devils advocate here but pretty sure I agree with what I am about to write and at the same time wish there was a better option available to fix the problem.
Point #1- The NFL has to be the hardest game on the planet to officiate. It has by far the biggest rulebook and the quickness of the game rivals all the sports with maybe the exception of hockey. The field of play is the biggest meaning you are responsible for watching a large field of action. It is the most popular sport as well as the most visible sport in America, you will constantly be under scrutiny from the fans and the media. Compare it to baseball and think about it...an umpire...know the strike zone and call a runner safe or out and they still manage to mess it up on occasion...over a 162 game season you mess up a call here or there and it doesn't (more than likely) cost a team their season and you don't get lambbasted by the fans and the media. Could go on and on here...the point being...it is not an easy job being an NFL ref.
Point #2- Since the rulebook is so large and you must know it off the top of your head (or at least you should) in the heat of the moment we need very intelligient people out there (hence the lawyers, accountants, etc...) that can make decisions in stressful situations. That job description (very smart and able to make split second decisions in stressful high emotion situations) only fits a very few in our society. Right or wrong...there is a certain profile to be an NFL Ref with the main point being very intelligient. There is a reason there are certain people out there that tend to be in certain professions outside of football.
Point #3- What if we actually have the cream of the crop out there? There is a point that will come that the officiating can't get any better (we aren't there yet) because it is officiated by humans. This game is played at such a high speed...we watch instant replays and still debate the call as fans and the media...was he in or out...did he get both feet down or did one touch the white line with the tip of his shoe...did he cross the plane for a touchdown in the middle of a dogpile of 2000 pounds of human...was his knee down or was it off the ground 2 inches when he fumbled...The point being referees are human. There will always be missed calls on the field no matter who is put out there. Call for replacement referees...some of us better be careful what we wish for...When all is said and done I want the best refs out there that can call a game fairly and let the players play within the rules...what that entails and how it is accomplished is up for debate...

[steelerhater]

Just playing devils advocate here but pretty sure I agree with what I am about to write and at the same time wish there was a better option available to fix the problem.
Point #1- The NFL has to be the hardest game on the planet to officiate. It has by far the biggest rulebook and the quickness of the game rivals all the sports with maybe the exception of hockey. The field of play is the biggest meaning you are responsible for watching a large field of action. It is the most popular sport as well as the most visible sport in America, you will constantly be under scrutiny from the fans and the media. Compare it to baseball and think about it...an umpire...know the strike zone and call a runner safe or out and they still manage to mess it up on occasion...over a 162 game season you mess up a call here or there and it doesn't (more than likely) cost a team their season and you don't get lambbasted by the fans and the media. Could go on and on here...the point being...it is not an easy job being an NFL ref.
Point #2- Since the rulebook is so large and you must know it off the top of your head (or at least you should) in the heat of the moment we need very intelligient people out there (hence the lawyers, accountants, etc...) that can make decisions in stressful situations. That job description (very smart and able to make split second decisions in stressful high emotion situations) only fits a very few in our society. Right or wrong...there is a certain profile to be an NFL Ref with the main point being very intelligient. There is a reason there are certain people out there that tend to be in certain professions outside of football.
Point #3- What if we actually have the cream of the crop out there? There is a point that will come that the officiating can't get any better (we aren't there yet) because it is officiated by humans. This game is played at such a high speed...we watch instant replays and still debate the call as fans and the media...was he in or out...did he get both feet down or did one touch the white line with the tip of his shoe...did he cross the plane for a touchdown in the middle of a dogpile of 2000 pounds of human...was his knee down or was it off the ground 2 inches when he fumbled...The point being referees are human. There will always be missed calls on the field no matter who is put out there. Call for replacement referees...some of us better be careful what we wish for...When all is said and done I want the best refs out there that can call a game fairly and let the players play within the rules...what that entails and how it is accomplished is up for debate...

These current refs miss more than a few calls each week. How many times do we see phantom holding calls, missed holding calls, offensive interference not called, BS roughing the passer calls, etc. Many of these bad calls (or no calls)do effect the outcome of the game. Super Bowl 40 was a classic example of either a referee's ineptness, favoritism, or corruptness.

[saintmatthew]

Anyone see the Bengals v Falcons last night. More suck-ass reffing.

[HoustonRaven]

I agree with the idea of full time refs.

Full time refs has almost no downside other than getting them in place, which could mean 2-3 seasons of replacements, thus the quality dips for a short time. A full time ref can focus on their craft, attend training, have a more in depth working knowledge of the rule book, etc. IMO, the growing pains of 2-3 years of lackluster officiating is WELL worth it if at the other end we have professional referees.

IIRC, the league has been trying to go in this direction for a while now but it's the current crop of refs that are holding up the process. They like their high paying, part-time gig just the way it is.

[DkBlue]

They need to get the regular refs backs soon. As much as everyone bitches about them they are pretty good overall. Fans bitch about holding calls and PI and the fan does not really now the rule.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I read that the Refs are willing to become full time, but they want salaries in line with mid level to senior baseball umpires.

They also would want a defined, quality pension plan as well as a couple other perks.

I don't think many are raking in 500k plus at their regular jobs, although I'd think most are in the low 6 figure area.

I think the Refs are being reasonable really...the NFL needs to stop being cheap and reward the best we have out there.

[Beau Petard]

Just to add some math to the situation, consider:
> 32 teams each play 16 games each season - thats 512 team-games, or 256 games
>7 officials for each game - that's 1792 game officials needed each regular season
> I think they have an extra guy available in case of an injury, so add 256 -- 2048 "game officials"
> Assume the highest salary cited earlier in this thread for MLB umpires, at $141,000/year -- even if each NFL official earned $141K EACH GAME!, multiply that by 2048 and you get $288,768,000. That is not quite 3.25% of the $9 BILLION + the league grosses each season.

>Assume the bottle of Cab Sauv that SWMBO and I split tonite, PLUS the three Molson Canadians I've had so far MAY have impaired my statistical analysis, but from what I know of private enterprise, it doesn't seem unreasonable to allot around 3-4% for an element of the game that is way more tham overhead and G&A.

Why is it such a stretch to support the concept that the NFL officials should be full-time employees?

[TheJoeFlaccoShow]

I read that the Refs are willing to become full time, but they want salaries in line with mid level to senior baseball umpires.

They also would want a defined, quality pension plan as well as a couple other perks.

I don't think many are raking in 500k plus at their regular jobs, although I'd think most are in the low 6 figure area.

I think the Refs are being reasonable really...the NFL needs to stop being cheap and reward the best we have out there.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/ey...lse-misleading

"The issues of 'full time' officials and additional officials have never been serious issues in the negotiations," the NFLRA wrote. "The NFLRA is not opposed to full time officials if they are fairly compensated. While the NFL has never made any compensation proposal, comparable positions in other professional sports at the 20 year level earn approximately $350,000 to $400,000 and are provided health insurance, a pension, time-off with pay and numerous other benefits."

Assuming all of that is true (it is from the ref's counsel, so who knows), I don't think many people realize that this would constitute a pay increase of about 400% in salary alone.

Now are they going to be working 4 days a week instead of 1?

Then you get into full time and guaranteed pensions added on to that, for life, and we are talking about a MASSIVE amount of money.

Easy to sit here and say just pay them, but when you start getting into fully guaranteed pensions and what not it isn't that simple.

They are essentially trying to re design the entire structure of the relationship, that doesn't happen overnight. There is no platform to build off of or tweak like in most CBA negotiations, they are basically starting from the ground up if they make them full time.