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  1. #85

    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster



    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    You are correct that signing street free agents (guys who had been released) don't factor in the compensatory pick equation. However, I don't think McBean was released. McBean had been offered a contract by Denver, but then they pulled it after the impending suspension came to light. But I think he was technically still under contract and not released when the Ravens signed him.
    Yea they tendered him then pulled the tender, same as a release





  2. #86

    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Ok, list your top 15 OT's and I can go from there.

    And Gaither is hardly the only player...I just named 4, and you apparently consider Gaither in that group. That's 5 out of the 15. Penn, Valdheer and Staley makes it 8 of the top 15. Over half.
    Joe thomas
    Jake Long
    Ryan Clady
    Joe Staley*
    Jordan gross
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson
    Jared Gaither*
    Jared veldheer*
    Jason Peters*
    Russell Okung
    Bryant McKinnie
    Michael Roos*
    Donald Penn*
    Tyron Smith
    Matt Kalil

    That's 15, the sad part is how hard it was to even come up with 15 acceptable Lt's 2 included, are projections, but Smith was damn good at RT last year, and Kalil, to me, is a gimme. He'll be top 5 after this year, at worst. A few others liek Eugene Monroe and Trent Williams would be in that next group with Whitworth, Marshall Newhouse, Will Beatty, followed by the Brandon Albert's, Duane Brown, Roger Saffold and Michael Oher's of the world. That'sa 2/3rds top 15, Another pair by the first coupel picks of the second round and some that came from nowhere.
    Last edited by jonboy79; 08-16-2012 at 02:41 PM.




  3. #87
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I'd like to trade up to the early teens. I'd trade our first two picks for a legit LT.
    You might but Oz wouldn't IMO. In today's NFL I don't think many teams would.
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  4. #88
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    You'd take Penn and Staley over Whitworth?




  5. #89

    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    You'd take Penn and Staley over Whitworth?
    Heck yeah, he's a one year wonder and I didn't think his one year was that wonder-ful.




  6. #90
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Heck yeah, he's a one year wonder and I didn't think his one year was that wonder-ful.
    Whitworth has been solidly good the last three years and is a pretty consistent player. Staley has barely ever been average and Penn... he's inconsistent, and two of the last three seasons he was gash... such an overrated player.




  7. #91
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Andrew Whitworth has been good for the last 3 years, it wasn't a one year wonder. You can't put Duane Brown in the same class as Oher, infact IMO he is a top 10 left tackle, he has been immense in through out the last two years, and is one of the biggest reasons to Fosters success.




  8. #92
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Gaither was 5th supplemental, Donald Penn UDFA, Veldheer in the 3rd, Joe Staley late first... yet despite my addition, we still haven't named probably 70% of the players I would consider better then average(top 15).


    It's like saying you can find a HOF QB late because of Brady and Romo... sure you can, but mathematically, it's a BADDD way to go about it. Top end Tackles are almost never worse then solid-great guards(Robert Gallery) when everythign shakes out. Busts at other positions many times are out of football ina few years.

    I would argue that LT is the LOWEST RISK of all high level picks, and also that it is a position that subscribes to the "planet theory" in that theere are only a set ammount of people on the planet that have the size and skillset to play the position at a high level. Traditionally this means "most" of the LT prospects are gone by the teens, early 20's overall.

    Sure we could luck into another Jared Gaither, but I think I'd rather devote solid assets to make the scenario more likely. And maybe, jsut maybe, he wouldn't have a flawed character and wouldn't need to be driven from the team.

    The reality is that most of the teams in the NFL right now do NOT have a high-caliber starting left tackle. They just don't because they're so difficult to find. Guys who dominate in college at LT can't hack it against NFL defensive ends and rush OLB's. Something else that is interesting is you could sincerely formulate a legitimate argument that those teams who DO have a top rated LT haven't been able to generate success on the field. The Giants went with William Beatty (average at best) last year until he got hurt and then they shuffled their OL around and moved David Diehl (who was their RT) over to the left side and they won the Super Bowl. Why? Because their offensive coordinator realized that their OL wasn't going to be able to protect Manning for longer than a few seconds and consistently open up holes for an effective ground game. Kevin Gilbride and Eli Manning game planned for this. They utilized the strengths of their players and it worked.

    (IMO) you have 2 LT's in the NFL right now that I would classify as "elite".
    Joe Thomas - Cleveland
    Jake Long - Miami

    Then you have a handful of really good LT's...
    Duane Brown - Houston
    Michael Roos - Tennessee
    Andrew Whitworth - Cinci
    Joe Staley - San Fran
    Trent Williams - Washington (when healthy)
    Russell Okung - Seattle (when healthy)
    Ryan Clady - Denver
    Jason Peters - Philly
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson - NY Jets
    Jordan Gross - Carolina

    etc.

    Then you have what I consider to be average LT's...
    Sam Baker - Atlanta
    Donald Penn - Tampa
    Max Starks - Pittsburgh
    Bryant McKinnie - Baltimore
    Brandon Albert - KC
    Jared Veldheer - Oakland
    Eugene Monroe - Jacksonville

    etc

    Then you have the below average guys...
    J'Marcus Webb - Chicago
    Levi Brown - Arizona
    Demetrus Bell - Philly (formerly Buffalo)



    The point is, there are a lot more average and below average LT's in the NFL and it doesn't really seem to have much of a correlation with success or failure. I'm sure every team would love to have Jake Long protecting their QB, but the odds of drafting a guy who can pan out to be that good are so incredibly rare and those guys NEVER hit the free agency market in their prime. It just doesn't happen. So, teams are going to hang onto even below average LT's because the odds are favorable that they'll still be better than who they draft unless they are picking in the top 10 and then the odds balance out a lot more because you're looking at prospects like Okung, Long, Thomas, etc.

    Green Bay is another example of this. They've drafted not 1, but 2 first round guys who were highly rated LT prospects in their respective drafts (Derek Sherrod out of Mississippi State and Bryan Bulaga out of Iowa). Bulaga has been a solid starting RT, but Sherrod has rarely seen the field and in fact, Marshall Newhouse (a 5th round pick originally projected to be a guard) started most of last season at LT once Chad Clifton went down with injury.

    The OT position is certainly important, but IMO the QB and WR's are WAY more important to the success of an offense. In the last 7 super bowls there really has only been one team who got there without having an elite QB or any elite or top rated receivers and that was Chicago in 2006.

    I don't think Oher will ever be an elite or even a really good LT in this league, but I do think that he can be good enough for the Ravens to be successful and win a SB if he were to start at LT again. It might not be ideal, but if the offense plays to it's strengths than Oher's (potential) inadequacies won't impact the outcome of the game too much.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 08-16-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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  9. #93
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Shouldn't we get a fair haul of compensatory picks next year for all the FAs we lost this year? (JJ, Redding, Grubbs, Zibby, Ninja, C. Carr, have I left anyone out?) I know you can't trade comp picks, but a decent number would give Oz some leeway to bundle the regular picks in the interests of grabbing a top LT prospect.
    And, as if on cue, our resident capologist reports that the Ravens will very likely get 4 comp picks next year, possibly including as high as a 3rd-rounder. So Oz will probably have maximum flexibility next spring.

    I found this list of top 2013 draft prospects over on nfl.com (* - underclassman):

    Offensive Tackles

    1. *Taylor Lewan, Michigan, 6-8/302
    2. *D.J. Fluker, Alabama, 6-6/335
    3. *Jake Matthews, Texas A&M, 6-5/305
    4. *Chris Faulk, LSU, 6-6/325
    5. Ricky Wagner, Wisconsin, 6-6/322

    Lewan may be this year's version of Kalil if he continues to get stronger. Fluker's a massive road grader who has better feet than expected. Matthews is the son of Pro Football Hall of Famer Bruce Matthews, but his strong play is what gets him on this list. Faulk and Wagner have the girth and just good enough footwork to play immediately as rookies, even if it's on the right side of the line instead of the left.
    Iffy collection--no telling who's coming out of the top 4. Any one of these guys jump out at anyone? For that matter, would you bundle picks on a prospective LT or on heirs for #52 (Te'o?) and #20 (deep safety class by all reports)? Interesting questions, nyet?




  10. #94
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    And, as if on cue, our resident capologist reports that the Ravens will very likely get 4 comp picks next year, possibly including as high as a 3rd-rounder. So Oz will probably have maximum flexibility next spring.

    I found this list of top 2013 draft prospects over on nfl.com (* - underclassman):

    Iffy collection--no telling who's coming out of the top 4. Any one of these guys jump out at anyone? For that matter, would you bundle picks on a prospective LT or on heirs for #52 (Te'o?) and #20 (deep safety class by all reports)? Interesting questions, nyet?
    The LT class in 2013 doesn't have a clear favourite quite yet to be picked before anyone else, like Matt Kalil this year. But it is deep of big athletic guys, some of whom I think can become at least solid LT's in this league. IMO there are no elite guys there though. And to answer your question about whether I would pick a LT over Manti Te'o, no chance in hell. There really are no tackles in this class by the time we will likely be picking (after 20 at least, hopefully anyway) that would be worth taking over a guy like Te'o, if on the outside chance Te'o drops because of the position he plays. Te'o IMO is even better than last years top LB in Luke Kuechly. It will have to take either a bad season for him to drop down, or the fact that rebuilding teams realize that they can't afford to invest first round picks on LB's when they have much bigger needs. So it gives us a small chance of landing him. Going by 2011 alone, (all of this could well change after the 2012 season) but priority number 1 has to be Te'o if he is close to us.

    Back up plan which will likely come into place if we can't get Te'o, should be some type of athletic tackle that can compete with Oher for the starting LT job. Btw, I don't get why they listed Taylor Lewman that high, I noticed there is a lot of buzz around him right now, probably because he's coming from Michigan, and we all know who else came from there at the same position. He looks good in some things on film, and needs to seriously improve other things to his game from what I seen. For a start he needs to pack on some muscle to that 6'7 302 lb frame, he can get over powered. To me, the top LT right now has to be Oday Aboushi.




  11. #95
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Joe thomas
    Jake Long
    Ryan Clady
    Joe Staley*
    Jordan gross
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson
    Jared Gaither*
    Jared veldheer*
    Jason Peters*
    Russell Okung
    Bryant McKinnie
    Michael Roos*
    Donald Penn*
    Tyron Smith
    Matt Kalil

    That's 15, the sad part is how hard it was to even come up with 15 acceptable Lt's 2 included, are projections, but Smith was damn good at RT last year, and Kalil, to me, is a gimme. He'll be top 5 after this year, at worst. A few others liek Eugene Monroe and Trent Williams would be in that next group with Whitworth, Marshall Newhouse, Will Beatty, followed by the Brandon Albert's, Duane Brown, Roger Saffold and Michael Oher's of the world. That'sa 2/3rds top 15, Another pair by the first coupel picks of the second round and some that came from nowhere.
    How can you honestly include Matt Kalil though? He's not taken a snap in the NFL. He could bust out easily.

    Tyron Smith? He was a RT last year who is being given a shot at LT. Oher was a damn good RT too his rookie year and when they moved him over to LT...well...we saw how that went.
    When it comes to quarterbacks, don't pay attention to stats; pay attention to guys who make crucial plays at crucial times. -Gil Brandt


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  12. #96
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    Re: Osemele will start opening game, McKinnie in danger to make roster

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post

    Iffy collection--no telling who's coming out of the top 4. Any one of these guys jump out at anyone? For that matter, would you bundle picks on a prospective LT or on heirs for #52 (Te'o?) and #20 (deep safety class by all reports)? Interesting questions, nyet?
    Assuming (hopefully) that the Ravens are picking at 32 or very near there next year, I think Manti T'eo would grade out to be one of the BPA's.

    Taylor Lewan is a nice prospect. Definitely in that long/lanky mold like Matt Kalil, Nate Solder, Anthony Costanzo, etc. We've been seeing a lot more of those guys coming out of college. He has nice footwork in pass protection, but like Kalil he definitely needs to put on some good weight. Still though, the talent is there. Don't know that I'd sincerely grade him out as the top LT prospect for next year though.

    DJ Fluker is massive. Very similar to KO. The only issue I'd really have with Fluker is that he's really only played RT at Alabama. Barrett Jones was their LT last year. Can he make that switch? Or, is he predominately a RT? Secondly, he's got good footwork, but he also seems to be kind of a "straight ahead" blocker...or that's where he is at his best.

    Jake Matthews is intriguing because he has exceptional footwork and natural athleticism/strength. He's predominately been a RT at Texas A&M as well...so how would he handle a transition to LT in the pro's? Or, like his dad, would he be a better interior OL'man?

    Faulk and Wagner are just massive guys and while they're both playing LT for their respective teams I think most teams will project them as RT prospects who can play LT in a pinch and not the other way around. They're maulers with not a lot of finesse.

    Check out these guys:
    Oday Aboushi, UVA, 6'6" 315lbs (UVA churns out some decent OL'men...)
    Barrett Jones, Alabama, 6'5" 310lbs (Prob my favorite OL prospect next year...is playing center this year for 'Bama, but was their starting LT last year).
    Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M, 6'6" 320lbs (3 year starter at LT)
    Justin Pugh, Syracuse, 6'6" 299lbs (needs to add some poundage, but he's nasty, strong, and athletic...I like this guy as a sleeper 2nd round pick or so)
    Tanner Hawkinson, Kansas, 6'6" 300lbs (excellent pass protector...3 yr starter at LT...so-so run blocker).

    ***EDIT: A thought I just had on Taylor Lewan - Being that Harbs is still buddy-buddy with Greg Mattison and Brady Hoke (who are both at Michigan) I bet he could probably get some inside information on Lewan as an NFL left tackle prospect.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 08-17-2012 at 07:05 AM. Reason: Another Thought...
    When it comes to quarterbacks, don't pay attention to stats; pay attention to guys who make crucial plays at crucial times. -Gil Brandt


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