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  1. #73

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!



    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    The pocket when it comes to intentional grounding does not move wherever the tackle ends up at the end of the play.

    It's from tackle to tackle at the snap of the ball.

    It was a roll out...the LT rolled with him.

    I may be wrong, but I don't see how the pocket gets larger solely depending on where the OT's wind up at the end of the play...or theoretically, you can have the entire field considered "in the pocket" if both tackles wind up at the opposite sidelines during the course of the play.

    At the start of the play, and for rules purposes, the pocket edge of the left side of the pocket is still where the LT originally ended up, not how far he rolled out with Vick to protect in a rollout.
    IF that is true, I'm not sure, it's completely retarded.
    The term pocket, as you would casually think of it, was CLEARLY something Vick was in. He was inside the protective arc of his offensive linemen.
    Who cares where they line up, all that should matter is where they are.

    Offensive lines should line up as close to possible so that a QB can make one step in either direction at any time and simply throw the bal in the stands.
    There would basically never be another sack in footbal that way, ever again.





  2. #74

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Yes the "box" is established at the snap, it doesn't move with the OL. But I think the technical definition of the "tackle box" or "pocket" might be some small distance, maybe a yard, outside the tackles. I recall reading that in the rules but will have to re-check. The rules are confusing when they talk about being outside the tackle-position in the main description but then the "pocket" in the Items. It is the definition of "pocket" that I thought I saw somewhere else (under another rule) that was slightly different than outside the tackle-position.

    Either way, Vick looks well outside of it. The Eagles actually lined up a TE on the left also.

    I am now convinced the call was correct, according to the written rule.




  3. #75

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Yeah, that is how I remembered it except I thought he may have been at around the left hash (vs a yard outside of it). I knew the ball was snapped from the right hash, because I recalled they spotted it there after the whole fumble/IG play (because it was incomplete). I sort of assumed people had rewatched it and it was close but inside the tackles, when in fact it wasn't super-close and was outside the tackle box.
    I hadn't rewatched it I jsut assumed the league didn't have such a moronic rule as to what the tackel box is defined as. The rule as explained above is completely exploitable and any QB coordinator combination that basically ever gives up a sack ever again should be ashamed of themselves. The tackle box can easily be shrank to a couple of yards wide, making intentional grouning and sacks a thing of the past if desired.




  4. #76

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    LOL it matters because you could have both tackles...the guys that are the edge of the pocket rule, just run to opposite sidelines at the snap and the entire field would be considered "in the pocket" according to you.

    Of course that is extreme and nobody would run a play like that, but based one what you are trying to say, theoretically, the pocket would be extended from sideline to sideline.

    The pocket..."tackle box" is not meant to expand or shrink based on the play.

    Here is something that actually happens.

    At the snap, the DL does a couple stunts, the OT's actually collapse into the OG's...the pocket is still from the original tackle spot to the other.

    What if during a play, Oher is blocking and goes with his man directly behind Flacco...or is bull rushed past Joe. Does that mean that if Joe takes a single step to his left that he is outside the pocket since there is now no tackle at all on his left side?

    It all goes back to where they originally lined up...that is a defined area that stays that size no matter which way...in or out the OT's move during thier pass sets.




  5. #77

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I hadn't rewatched it I jsut assumed the league didn't have such a moronic rule as to what the tackel box is defined as. The rule as explained above is completely exploitable and any QB coordinator combination that basically ever gives up a sack ever again should be ashamed of themselves. The tackle box can easily be shrank to a couple of yards wide, making intentional grouning and sacks a thing of the past if desired.
    No it cannot.

    At the snap, it is defined and will stay that way throughout the play.

    I actually think that is very fair as opposed to having random pockets of different sizes




  6. #78

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Offensive lines should line up as close to possible so that a QB can make one step in either direction at any time and simply throw the bal in the stands.
    There would basically never be another sack in footbal that way, ever again.
    LOL. They do line up shoulder to shoulder for the most part. I am not sure how much extra distance can be saved by squeezing, plus you need some freedom of motion. And obviously, it is more than one step to get outside even the most squeezed O-line. It is probably 3 yards to each side, considering 2.5 jumbos with pads from center to outside shoulder of tackle.




  7. #79

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    LOL it matters because you could have both tackles...the guys that are the edge of the pocket rule, just run to opposite sidelines at the snap and the entire field would be considered "in the pocket" according to you.

    Of course that is extreme and nobody would run a play like that, but based one what you are trying to say, theoretically, the pocket would be extended from sideline to sideline.

    The pocket..."tackle box" is not meant to expand or shrink based on the play.

    Here is something that actually happens.

    At the snap, the DL does a couple stunts, the OT's actually collapse into the OG's...the pocket is still from the original tackle spot to the other.

    What if during a play, Oher is blocking and goes with his man directly behind Flacco...or is bull rushed past Joe. Does that mean that if Joe takes a single step to his left that he is outside the pocket since there is now no tackle at all on his left side?

    It all goes back to where they originally lined up...that is a defined area that stays that size no matter which way...in or out the OT's move during thier pass sets.
    You aren't making sense. there is no benefit to being the pocket as the per the rule. You would rather BE OUT of it so you can throw the ball away at will. Why would you WANT the whole field to be the pocket.
    But do what I say, and line your linemen up shoulder to shoulder at the snap and spread on the snap and the QB is never more then a single steap OUT of the box and can throw the ball way whenever he would like, even with players hanging on him.




  8. #80

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    LOL. They do line up shoulder to shoulder for the most part. I am not sure how much extra distance can be saved by squeezing, plus you need some freedom of motion. And obviously, it is more than one step to get outside even the most squeezed O-line. It is probably 3 yards to each side, considering 2.5 jumbos with pads from center to outside shoulder of tackle.
    With the distance from defender to QB shrinking like that, there actually would be a ton more sacks.

    No OC wants to shorten the distance between his QB and defender.




  9. #81

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    LOL. They do line up shoulder to shoulder for the most part. I am not sure how much extra distance can be saved by squeezing, plus you need some freedom of motion. And obviously, it is more than one step to get outside even the most squeezed O-line. It is probably 3 yards to each side, considering 2.5 jumbos with pads from center to outside shoulder of tackle.
    YOu are trying to say 5 men are 18 feet wide, shoulder to shoulder? Try half that, even 300 poounders. How they are currently lined up they can probably squeeze entire people into each hole. Thus they DOUBLE the width of the pocket, when being in the pocket is a HUGELY negative thing.




  10. #82

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    With the distance from defender to QB shrinking like that, there actually would be a ton more sacks.

    No OC wants to shorten the distance between his QB and defender.
    Except that from nearly anywhere on the field the QB could jsut throw it into the stands past the LOS, thus eliminating the desire to even rush the passer in the first place,. Asdd to that, that if you are getting touched by a defender and it doesn't have to make it back to the LOS and basically you can't fumble from a sack as long as it moves 2 inches forward when you drop it.




  11. #83

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    You aren't making sense. there is no benefit to being the pocket as the per the rule. You would rather BE OUT of it so you can throw the ball away at will. Why would you WANT the whole field to be the pocket.
    But do what I say, and line your linemen up shoulder to shoulder at the snap and spread on the snap and the QB is never more then a single steap OUT of the box and can throw the ball way whenever he would like, even with players hanging on him.
    I just said that it's extreme and nobody would do it.

    It's pure theoretical.

    But based on your assumptions, it could happen...whether it makes sense to run a play like that or not.

    You are obviously pissed that we lost like that so I don't think your mind is actually being opened to see the logic in the rule...there is plenty of it.

    You want a defined space for this rule. If you start moving it based on where lineman wind up while getting mandhandled by defenders, you are making grounding even more of a judgement call than it is.

    As for the shoulder to shoulder thing...sure I guess if OC's want to just throw the ball away on every play, sure it may help some.

    But it would also get your QB destroyed so the shoulder to shoulder thing makes no sense.




  12. #84

    Re: Arm going Forwad, Hmmm Intentional Grounding!?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Except that from nearly anywhere on the field the QB could jsut throw it into the stands past the LOS, thus eliminating the desire to even rush the passer in the first place,. Asdd to that, that if you are getting touched by a defender and it doesn't have to make it back to the LOS and basically you can't fumble from a sack as long as it moves 2 inches forward when you drop it.
    If I'm a DC, I'll take QB's throwing incomplete passes every play if that's what they want to do.

    I'll take 0 passing yards everyday of the week.




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