Why does Birk use the exact same shotgun snap routine every freaking time?

[wickedsolo]

Castillo was a decent OL coach in Philly.

[RedSkins Fury]

Also, anyone else notice that Yanda waves his hand right behind Birk's leg and then Birk snaps it directly after? That's a pretty big tell as well.

This is a problem and one reason why DL's are able to jump the snap like they do against the Ravens.

Maybe that's what I was seeing... But I did notice Yanda doing something.. I thought it was rocking back or a small foot flinch just before each snap. I guess I never thought about it being part of a pre-snap routine, I was more worried about him eventually getting called for a false start.

As far as a Hard Count goes... I do remember Flacco having a good one and using in past seasons and getting guys to jump more than a few times. It would seem to me that these guys are pros and should be able to flow seamlessly between a silent count/snap... hard count, etc from play to play based on wording in the play call.

[Shas]

As I said, it's not a new issue. Here's a Q&A with Mike Preston in the Sun from September last year, after the loss to the crummy Titans team.

Nate: It appears that Marshal Yanda is making the line calls on offense, and then getting set right as the ball is snapped. The timing of it seemed to allow Tennessee to jump the snap basically every play. What was going on?

Mike Preston: Nate, I don't know if Yanda was making the line calls, but he was giving some type of signal to center Matt Birk. Like you, I noticed the Titans had picked up on the Ravens' cadence and it appeared as if they knew the snap count. Coach John Harbaugh and offensive coordinator Cam Cameron have to review the cadence. A good quarterback will use a hard count to draw teams off sides. A major advantage for the offensive line, especially the weak-side tackle, is to get a good jump, but the Ravens lost that advantage several times against Tennessee.

[arnie_uk]

As I said, it's not a new issue. Here's a Q&A with Mike Preston in the Sun from September last year, after the loss to the crummy Titans team.

it doesn't happen at home, well, I haven't seen it at home, and I didn't notice it as much last year because we set up so late we were snapping the ball at 1 second on the play clock anyway.

But this year it's far more noticeable on the road, in shotgun especially, no matter how long is left n the play clock.

[Shas]

it doesn't happen at home.

Under the assumption that Birk can't hear the QB with crowd noise, and can't afford to duck his head to watch for hand signals, perhaps Yanda is signalling to both Flacco and Birk to start the snap count, which would then go off of beats, not sound. Just a guess. If Birk is calling out the defense and protections, I suppose he has to survey in front of him.

[lobachevsky]

Under the assumption that Birk can't hear the QB with crowd noise, and can't afford to duck his head to watch for hand signals, perhaps Yanda is signalling to both Flacco and Birk to start the snap count, which would then go off of beats, not sound. Just a guess. If Birk is calling out the defense and protections, I suppose he has to survey in front of him.

Is it "going off of beats"--? Or is it more like moose calls it: Birk ducks head to look back at Flacco (or maybe to signal the rest of the OL) & then snaps the ball a fixed interval later? Sure as hell seems like the latter to me.

Look, I admit I don't know much about football, but...Let's suppose that Birk's head bob is (at least in part) to alert the unit that the ball is about to be snapped, and (at least in part) to see that Flacco is ready for the ball. Why couldn't they run the shotgun something like this:

• Birk settles at center, surveys defense, makes preliminary blocking calls
• Birk then looks back through legs at Flacco until Flacco lifts leg, at which point
• Birk raises head, adjusts blocking if necessary, & snaps ball X beats after his head comes back up

--where X varies from play to play. You could also initiate a shift or man in motion at the leg-lift, knowing that the ball will be snapped so many beats later. You could change the silent count to start after the second leg lift. Etc...

In this scheme, Flacco controls when the silent count starts & signals that to backs & receivers & Birk, Birk with his head signals the start of the count to the OL, and the number of beats in the count is settled in the huddle & not shown to the opponents.

Again, I dunno much about football, but...couldn't something at least conceptually like this work? & wouldn't it be better than essentially giving away the snap count on every play??

[arnie_uk]

Is it "going off of beats"--? Or is it more like moose calls it: Birk ducks head to look back at Flacco (or maybe to signal the rest of the OL) & then snaps the ball a fixed interval later? Sure as hell seems like the latter to me.

Look, I admit I don't know much about football, but...Let's suppose that Birk's head bob is (at least in part) to alert the unit that the ball is about to be snapped, and (at least in part) to see that Flacco is ready for the ball. Why couldn't they run the shotgun something like this:

• Birk settles at center, surveys defense, makes preliminary blocking calls
• Birk then looks back through legs at Flacco until Flacco lifts leg, at which point
• Birk raises head, adjusts blocking if necessary, & snaps ball X beats after his head comes back up

--where X varies from play to play. You could also initiate a shift or man in motion at the leg-lift, knowing that the ball will be snapped so many beats later. You could change the silent count to start after the second leg lift. Etc...

In this scheme, Flacco controls when the silent count starts & signals that to backs & receivers & Birk, Birk with his head signals the start of the count to the OL, and the number of beats in the count is settled in the huddle & not shown to the opponents.

Again, I dunno much about football, but...couldn't something at least conceptually like this work? & wouldn't it be better than essentially giving away the snap count on every play??

By beats you mean or the play clock?

[jonboy79]

This could very well be related to Michael Oher's false start issues. there was talks that they would inform himof when the ball was snapped and even some talkl that they were snapping on his movement, as opposed to letting him move off Birk's snaps...

[lobachevsky]

By beats you mean or the play clock?

I meant "one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two" etc.--each player counting the seconds out in his head. Going by the play clock would be better (because more synchronized) but what happens if a lineman is screened from the clock by the defenders? In any case you might want their eyes focused on the players they have to block rather than the play clock.

That make sense?

[Shas]

I was assuming these guys aren't dumb and aren't going to have a system where they have to snap it immediately after Yanda pats Birk and yells, "go." I would assume, under this system we're imagining, that the snap could come one, two or three beats after this with Flacco barking the hut, hut, hut, but with everyone (Birk in particular) knowing when to start counting if they can't hear Joe barking out the count.

But it's one thing to have a system where you can count beats with the cadence and not have to go on "one" every time ... and it's another to actually utilize it and change the count.

[arnie_uk]

I meant "one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two" etc.--each player counting the seconds out in his head. Going by the play clock would be better (because more synchronized) but what happens if a lineman is screened from the clock by the defenders? In any case you might want their eyes focused on the players they have to block rather than the play clock.

That make sense?

yea it does, I just wasn't sure if that's what they done. That's initially what I thought of, but then I thought that's a stupid way to get the, to all come of the snap at the same time.

Is that really how they do it? Or is that an assumption. Then at home hey go on the quarterbacks shout?

I'm not sure of the ins and outs of oline play.

[moose10101]

Under the assumption that Birk can't hear the QB with crowd noise, and can't afford to duck his head to watch for hand signals, perhaps Yanda is signalling to both Flacco and Birk to start the snap count, which would then go off of beats, not sound. Just a guess. If Birk is calling out the defense and protections, I suppose he has to survey in front of him.

That most likely is what's happening, but the # of beats is always 1. Every shotgun snap in the Texans game was done immediately after Birk ducked his head. No variation at all.

[macho GRANDE]

Yeah I noticed that right guard movement thing too. I was amazed that the Texans weren't jumping offsides and even more amazed that he wasn't being flagged for false starts.

[admartian]

Yeah I noticed that right guard movement thing too. I was amazed that the Texans weren't jumping offsides and even more amazed that he wasn't being flagged for false starts.

I remember Ross Tucker (former NFL Olineman) saying something along the lines of (paraphrase) that refs don't call a false start if it's due to the linemen turning around or moving for adjustments to their blocking - while still being technically a false start - since it's adjustments, they tend to let that go.