Harbaugh loyal to a fault... Ravens coaching staff

**pslholder96** · 10-22-2012, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cj34

There is one reason to think this will finally be the last year of Cam - Flacco's contract. It's clear with the turbulance of their relationship that should Joe resign he will not want Cam back here. Then the Ravens will have a choice to make. Flacco may not be an elite QB but when the choice is between him and Cam there is no choice. Lol

This. Midway through the season and we still see some of the same issues on the offensive side of the ball. Me beginning to think that it might be chemistry related underneath the surface. Unless Cam and this offense finishes strong he's out after this season.

**Terpsfan82** · 10-22-2012, 06:30 PM

I don't think so. Harbaugh is not going to fire him. I just don't see that happening.

**lobachevsky** · 10-22-2012, 06:49 PM

What's Moeller's connection to this cabal? I've been snooping around the intertoobz & I haven't found any direct link to Harbaugh prior to coming here. Is he Cam's fair-haired boy?

**The Excellector** · 10-22-2012, 07:08 PM

There are decisions that do make you question whether or not John Harbaugh has taken the right approach. However, there are a few that show you he is willing to make a change if he feels it is necessary.

For example, the front office essentially suggested to Mattison that he take another offer if it comes around, because they were going to let him go. With that, John Harbaugh promotes Chuck Pagano and the defense flourishes.

Then, you have a situation such as the one with Andy Moeller, where Matsko was a guy everyone seemed to respect and thought had the offensive line moving in the right direction (was dealing with injuries up front before he was gone). Moeller hasn't done much better with the offensive line, but has seemingly been given a longer period to work things out.

As far as Cam Cameron is concerned, I think that John Harbaugh has unfairly shouldered the heat for Cameron being retained. Let's be clear: They all wanted Cam Cameron replaced. However, their dream replacement was retained by San Diego and we all know who that was. So, the front office chose continuity. Steve Bisciotti himself has talked about how they prefer to win games 15-12, rather than 45-42. This isn't merely a John Harbaugh issue. It is a front office issue.

Rest assured, however, that they now have their fall-back option in Jim Caldwell. So, if Norv Turner somehow survives another year and no other suitable options show up, you'll see Caldwell.

**srobert96** · 10-22-2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by ravens1217

Whether you think our assistants are the best in the NFL or not, you can't just fire everybody, it's unrealistic. This collective group, management, players, coaches, etc. have won a playoff game in 4 straight years, which is rarely done in the NFL and something we as fans should be proud of. You praise Wade Phillips, who just last week gave up 6 TD passes to Aaron Rodgers and was absolutely torched. Mike Nolan is now with his 3rd team in 4 years, there's a reason he's finding a new home almost every season.

Everybody from the top on down turned in a dud yesterday, but they're not going to hit the panic button just yet. Bye week came at a great time, and they have 2 weeks to figure it out. It's not just the coaches to blame, the players have to take some responsibility, its not as black and white as people make it out to be. Now if we lose say 4 or 5 in a row, then something major might happen, but I still think they wait until the year is over to make a decision on Cam.

Like I keep saying, win your games at home and find a way to split on the road, and you are guaranteed a first round bye.

It was not just yesterday. The problems on offense have been ongoing for years. The defense has fallen to bottom five in the league. That is unacceptable. I could see falling to 15-20 range. How is the defense worst than Indy? Because Harbs was loyal to Cam and Moeller they are stuck with one of them next year as they are probably not going to change over their entire staff. It is the coaches responsibility to get the players to perform. I am not expecting them to make decision in season. I think the coaches should be given the bye week to get things turned around. If they dont I am not sure the team makes the playoffs. If they dont I hope they make some significant changes.

**B-more Ravor** · 10-22-2012, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenous1

I hear ya but not buying it. Nolan was a guy who was unsuccessful in SF as a head coach and not a guy who IMO just walks into a team that has been to 4 straight playoffs and supplants the head coach. If this is the reason then its worse than I feared. Look Gary Kubiack had the stones to bring in Wade Phillips to be his D coordinator. Phillips is about as popular as one can get in Houston (Texas boy, dad Bum was popular etc..) but it did not stop him from bringing him in.

I just think John felt obligated to move up one of his guys. Pees has coordinator experience and was ok as a coordinator so I guess it makes sense. Just think that Nolan has a better pedigree and a history with the team.

1. Ray did not like playing in Nolan's 3-4 D.

2. Nolan's history with the team really means nothing when only 2 players remain with the team who were here when Nolan was.

3. Other than when a new staff has been hired with a new HC (and,even then, not always), the team has always promoted from within when replacing a coordinator. That predates Harbaugh.

Oh, and most HC's are just as loyal as Harbaugh.

**Dirt1** · 10-22-2012, 07:54 PM

I am wondering if Ozzie and Bisciotti are to the point where they tell Harbaugh to make some changes, or his job is on the line. Did the Ravens just extend Harbaugh's contract?

**The Excellector** · 10-22-2012, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

1. Ray did not like playing in Nolan's 3-4 D.

2. Nolan's history with the team really means nothing when only 2 players remain with the team who were here when Nolan was.

3. Other than when a new staff has been hired with a new HC (and,even then, not always), the team has always promoted from within when replacing a coordinator. That predates Harbaugh.

All very good points. Ray's displeasure with Nolan's defense, sort of, ushered in Rex Ryan's time as DC and the drafting of Haloti Ngata. Chris McAlister was a big reason why Nolan's defenses were good, but Ray was getting touched too often and he certainly voiced his displeasure.

**Kevlar** · 10-22-2012, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by lobachevsky

What's Moeller's connection to this cabal? I've been snooping around the intertoobz & I haven't found any direct link to Harbaugh prior to coming here. Is he Cam's fair-haired boy?

They all go back to Michigan. Moeller's dad was Michigan's head coach before he got fired, err resigned, for getting arrested in a drunken assault in a restaurant.

**psuasskicker** · 10-22-2012, 07:58 PM

Pees isn't close to the problem this defense has.

- C -

**wickedsolo** · 10-22-2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Corey

Don't take this the wrong way but I think your smoking crack. Harbaugh has more than made a name for himself. He doesn't get the media hype because he's not a media hound but if Harbaugh were fired today, he'd have his choice of jobs. He's a guy that consistently produces a winning record year after year. He's made the playoffs and been able to win on the road. The only thing keeping Harbaugh from being a star in the NFL is that elusive Superbowl ring, which if he continues to knock on the door, he will eventually get.

**wickedsolo** · 10-22-2012, 08:01 PM

Regarding Pees...I understand why they went with him, but I thought Ted Monachino would be the better choice. Young, hungry, and aggressive.

**lobachevsky** · 10-22-2012, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

They all go back to Michigan. Moeller's dad was Michigan's head coach before he got fired, err resigned, for getting arrested in a drunken assault in a restaurant.

Aaah geez, hereditary alcoholism, doncha love it. It looks like he had an alcohol-related auto accident in December 2007. One may be forgiven for wondering if after that, taking into consideration his dad's demise as Wolverine HC, the school suggested he look for work somewhere else--& sonofagun, John Harbaugh found a place for him here.

Forget Mattison, forget Cam--if there's one hire that looks for all the world like pure nepotism, it's Moeller. He needs to be gone, yesterday if possible.

**Ravenous1** · 10-22-2012, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

1. Ray did not like playing in Nolan's 3-4 D.

2. Nolan's history with the team really means nothing when only 2 players remain with the team who were here when Nolan was.

3. Other than when a new staff has been hired with a new HC (and,even then, not always), the team has always promoted from within when replacing a coordinator. That predates Harbaugh.

Oh, and most HC's are just as loyal as Harbaugh.

This is very true. Not sure how many head coaches keep Cam as long as John has IMO in light of pretty spotty results, a patchy relationship with the franchise QB and a tendency to forget that Ray Rice is always the best offensive weapon on the field.

How many times do we have to hear the news conference were the Ravens reiterate how much Ray Rice means to the offense and how they need to keep him involved...blah blah blah and then we end up having the same dog and pony show all over again when Ray has another game were he just disappears from the game plan. Its plain goofy. Maybe I am to harsh, it just seems silly that we have the same rant about 3-4 a season were we have to go off about how Ray Rice was just not utilized as he should be. Thats a big problem IMO and worthy of discussion.

**rastaman831226** · 10-22-2012, 10:56 PM

Like to clear up a misconception here. Dean Pees should not get a pass on the state of the Ravens' D. During the last 2 years as New England's D coordinator, Pees was unpopular because his defenses were deemed too soft. Soft as in missed and arm tackling, Linebackers failing to plug gaps, D line getting blown off the ball, etc. Sound familiar? Granted, the N.E defense was in a state of flux during Pees' last two years with seasoned vets retiring or moving on and lesser talent moving in, however; the lack of fundamental skills angered the Patriot fan base and Pees took himself out of the N.E. equation. As a Raven fan, I recall New England signing the versatile former Raven Adalious Thomas who under Pees fell flat on his face because a stubborn Pees insisted Thomas was to be used strictly as a LB. Stubborn, sound familiar?

**ravens1217** · 10-23-2012, 12:21 PM

So let's say we finish the season 10-6, make the playoffs and lose in the first round. Everyone on here gets their way and we completely clean house. Next year the team gets off to a 0-5 start with a whole new regime of coaches. What would be said then??

There's a reason this team has made the playoffs for 4, going on 5 years in a row, and its not as simple as "we have better talent than the rest of the NFL" I hate to break it to you, but every team in the NFL has world class talent.

**ravens1217** · 10-23-2012, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by srobert96

It was not just yesterday. The problems on offense have been ongoing for years. The defense has fallen to bottom five in the league. That is unacceptable. I could see falling to 15-20 range. How is the defense worst than Indy? Because Harbs was loyal to Cam and Moeller they are stuck with one of them next year as they are probably not going to change over their entire staff. It is the coaches responsibility to get the players to perform. I am not expecting them to make decision in season. I think the coaches should be given the bye week to get things turned around. If they dont I am not sure the team makes the playoffs. If they dont I hope they make some significant changes.

Overreact much? We're not even half way through the season. The Ravens defense was clearly not the same w/out the Defensive Player of the Year as any defense would not be. Nobody expected this big of a drop off, but look at the turnover......wait till the end of the season to judge them. Rankings are pretty meaningless considering yards is used as the barometer. Who cares if you give up 500 yards if you only give up 6 points and win the game?

Why do people find it shocking that a team that has made it to the playoffs 4 years in a row does not make it a habit to fire assistant coaches????? What evidence do we have that constantly replacing assistant coaches is a winning formula?? The Pats haven't won a Super Bowl in 10 years, I wonder if the assistant coaching carousel has anything to do with it.

**Kevlar** · 10-23-2012, 12:37 PM

Yeah, the team really went 0-5 afer ditching Ryan, Pops Mattison, and Pagano.

And those guys were all good coordinators, or at least better than Cameron. They left for better jobs, not because no one else wanted them.

We are stuck with Miami Cam until the boss tells Harbs to shit can him.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 10-23-2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by rastaman831226

Like to clear up a misconception here. Dean Pees should not get a pass on the state of the Ravens' D. During the last 2 years as New England's D coordinator, Pees was unpopular because his defenses were deemed too soft. Soft as in missed and arm tackling, Linebackers failing to plug gaps, D line getting blown off the ball, etc. Sound familiar? Granted, the N.E defense was in a state of flux during Pees' last two years with seasoned vets retiring or moving on and lesser talent moving in, however; the lack of fundamental skills angered the Patriot fan base and Pees took himself out of the N.E. equation. As a Raven fan, I recall New England signing the versatile former Raven Adalious Thomas who under Pees fell flat on his face because a stubborn Pees insisted Thomas was to be used strictly as a LB. Stubborn, sound familiar?

Yet they were still top 10 defenses.

NE would be THRILLED if their defenses of the last 2-3 years performed like they did back when Pees was DC.

**ravens1217** · 10-23-2012, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Yeah, the team really went 0-5 afer ditching Ryan, Pops Mattison, and Pagano.

And those guys were all good coordinators, or at least better than Cameron. They left for better jobs, not because no one else wanted them.

We are stuck with Miami Cam until the boss tells Harbs to shit can him.

First off, none of those guys were "ditched". Second, we promoted from within every single time which is why there wasn't much drop off. Continuity is a big bonus in the ever changing roster/coaching world of the NFL. The player turnover and major injuries on defense is the biggest reason why we see such a drop off this season, not the coaching.

The "boss" has had plenty of opportunities to "shit can" Cameron, there has to be a reason other than "Harbaugh is loyal" as to why he's stayed. Why do people think these issues are so simple??