The Ravens approached the offense the wrong way.

[Ravenalytics]

I hope Oregon wins the national championship so they can hire Chip Kelly

Chip Kelley would probably go to a head coaching position, I doubt he'd settle for coordinator after building a powerhouse college football program.

[Ravenswintitle]

Chip Kelley would probably go to a head coaching position, I doubt he'd settle for coordinator after building a powerhouse college football program.

I'm fine with that - welcome the Ravens new head coach ready to take questions:

Attachment 1159

[RavensNTerps]

Just what do you mean by "prolific"?

An offense that can, week in and week out, be expected to show up and perform at a high level. That is nearly impossible to acheive with average QB play, which is what we have.

Yes, even the Brady, Brees, and Mannings of the world have bad games, but in a given game you go in EXPECTING their teams to perform well on offense. With us? It's a crap shoot. Generally we do OK versus poor defenses and bad versus good ones. We are never carried about what should be expected against our opponent, or at least quite rarely. That is not on the OC at this point, I'm sorry. It's year 5.

[pslholder96]

An offense that can, week in and week out, be expected to show up and perform at a high level. That is nearly impossible to acheive with average QB play, which is what we have.

Yes, even the Brady, Brees, and Mannings of the world have bad games, but in a given game you go in EXPECTING their teams to perform well on offense. With us? It's a crap shoot. Generally we do OK versus poor defenses and bad versus good ones. We are never carried about what should be expected against our opponent, or at least quite rarely. That is not on the OC at this point, I'm sorry. It's year 5.

Then by your definition I have yet to see a "prolific" offense. And yes I agree Flacco needs to step up his game. If he wants to be elite he needs to take over this offense and nudge Cam aside. Too much coddling being done in my opinon. That's why part of me wants to see what Flacco looks like without Cam on the sidelines next year. Then we will know who's holding who back.

[BigPlayReceiver]

Chip Kelley would probably go to a head coaching position, I doubt he'd settle for coordinator after building a powerhouse college football program.

Kelly is on my short list, but the more I've read about him and thought about the scenario, the more I think that it's highly unlikely that he would want to come here and be an OC. After all, he had an HC job at TB, but he turned it down.

In short, Kelly is extremely organized and runs practices with incredible precision. And based upon his interest in TB, I think he'll go to a young team, young QB and an owner that stays out of his way for the most part. He's also going to want dynamic skill players on offense. Also, before Oregon, all of this coaching experience was on the east coast.

So looking at all the under-performing teams, offensive talent and probable vacancies; Kelly should be a good git in PHI if Reid finally gets fired. If not, then SD, or he stays at Oregon for another year.

[houstonravensfan]

Weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. Cam is here to stay UNLESS we begin losing big time. I don't want him here, but he has the record on his side. With Cam (or despite him) we have won a lot of games.

[Ravenalytics]

A pretty good read, btw, about how Chip Kelley could revolutionize the NFL:

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/men-...revolution-nfl

[RavensNTerps]

Then by your definition I have yet to see a "prolific" offense. And yes I agree Flacco needs to step up his game. If he wants to be elite he needs to take over this offense and nudge Cam aside. Too much coddling being done in my opinon. That's why part of me wants to see what Flacco looks like without Cam on the sidelines next year. Then we will know who's holding who back.

Bullshit. They tried to cut him loose with this hurry up no huddle and he proved incapable. We tried to run the offense at Patriot-speed (Flacco's own words) and he failed. Because he can't process information that quickly. He's not good at diagnoising disguised zone coverages and blitz packages. He's not even good at identifying the simplest hot routes (remember the Troy Polamalu play???). If anything he's being coddled because that's when he succeeds best.

For years we've heard "He needs to be in shotgun no huddle to succeed!!" and why? Becasue he played in that offense in college? Because we had success, at home, in a no huddle against a terrible Bengals defense? Or a terrible Cardinals offense last year?

[pslholder96]

Bullshit. They tried to cut him loose with this hurry up no huddle and he proved incapable. We tried to run the offense at Patriot-speed (Flacco's own words) and he failed. Because he can't process information that quickly. He's not good at diagnoising disguised zone coverages and blitz packages. He's not even good at identifying the simplest hot routes (remember the Troy Polamalu play???). If anything he's being coddled because that's when he succeeds best.

For years we've heard "He needs to be in shotgun no huddle to succeed!!" and why? Becasue he played in that offense in college? Because we had success, at home, in a no huddle against a terrible Bengals defense? Or a terrible Cardinals offense last year?

.

I get it. You're a flacco hater. Thanks

[RavensNTerps]

Not a hater, just stating the obvious. He's an average QB on a team with an average offense. They tried to give him more than he could handle and had to rein it in. It isn't the first time that it's happened by the way.

And the ironic part is for all the hemming and hawing about how Cam "abandoned the run too early" in Houston it was acutally Flacco, on the record, stating that he audibled into a lot of those passes from called run plays in the no huddle early on in that game.

[Captain Silver]

I don't think Flacco is as good or as bad as advertised. I see comparison's to Eli Manning and that isn't the case.

I think the situation here is a lot like the Denver Broncos. Not that Flacco is in Elway stature, but under Dan Reeves, Elway was winning, made Super Bowls, but never won anything. When Mike Shannahan came in, they junked everything and started running a West Coast offense with a very good running back in Terrell Davis, which we have in Rice.

Now we'd have to sack up and dump the offensive coordinator and/or the head coach that allows this miserable offense to continue, but I see that as the only way to fix Baltimore's offensive woes. Someone with fresh ideas and an offensive identity and attack that was developed AFTER I was born.

[leachisabeast]

Bullshit. They tried to cut him loose with this hurry up no huddle and he proved incapable. We tried to run the offense at Patriot-speed (Flacco's own words) and he failed. Because he can't process information that quickly. He's not good at diagnoising disguised zone coverages and blitz packages. He's not even good at identifying the simplest hot routes (remember the Troy Polamalu play???). If anything he's being coddled because that's when he succeeds best.

For years we've heard "He needs to be in shotgun no huddle to succeed!!" and why? Becasue he played in that offense in college? Because we had success, at home, in a no huddle against a terrible Bengals defense? Or a terrible Cardinals offense last year?

How about the Patriots this year and in the AFCCG? How about the Browns at home? How about the number 1 ranked defense last year on the road?

I agree that Joe Flacco isn't Peyton Manning, but he's certainly in a decent tier of QB's with Jay Cutler and Matt Shaubb, you can win championships with them, but the scheme has to be right. I don't believe Flacco is the kind of QB you want running a GB or NE style offense, he isn't quite that good, but he's certainly much better than any other options.

[Ravenswintitle]

How about the Patriots this year and in the AFCCG? How about the Browns at home? How about the number 1 ranked defense last year on the road?

I agree that Joe Flacco isn't Peyton Manning, but he's certainly in a decent tier of QB's with Jay Cutler and Matt Shaubb, you can win championships with them, but the scheme has to be right. I don't believe Flacco is the kind of QB you want running a GB or NE style offense, he isn't quite that good, but he's certainly much better than any other options.

Can you really win a championship with guys like Cutler and Schaubb and Flacco? Sounds good in theory but I keep seeing those elite guys hoist the trophy. It's become a QB league and I'm not sure a 'good' QB can win it all

[bmorecareful]

I never said Rice should be replaced.
I just pointed out how he doesn't fit Cam's offense as perfectly as Tomlinson did.

If anything, I'm suggesting that Cam needs to adjust the offense to better suit Rice's talents*** and stick with those adjustments rather than reverting back to how Cam prefers to do things (Cam's comfort zone).

***like for instance, running Rice to the outside more often and not sending him straight up the middle all the time. Also using Rice as an extra receiver, instead of relying on him to pass-block--you can use him to chip block, but with Vonta on this team, he should be the primary pass blocking back, which means he needs to be on the field more often too.

Speaking of Vonta, how is Flacco supposed to feel comfortable audibling to a run when a pass play is called if the best FB in the league is on the sideline?

The Ravens actually run the football better without Leach on the field than with him. When Leach is in the game, the defense only has to defend two plays: an iso run up the middle behind Leach's block, and a play-action pass designed to either take a deep shot to Torrey or throw underneath on a TE curl. When Leach is on the sideline the Ravens are a much more multiple, varied offense.

I'm not criticizing Leach for that, he is the best lead blocker in all of football--it's Cam Cameron's fault. When an offense is this easy to figure out, you are going to have more guys at the point of attack almost every play and that means failure.

I really don't understand why they don't use leach in pass pro.

Actually when the Ravens go to play action out of the I formation Leach does a good bit of pass blocking. When they roll Flacco out they usually have Leach slide out with him as a sort of personal protector. His assignment is on any blitzer that gets through the OL unblocked and he does a very good job of it, when the defense only rushes 4 he leaks out for a dump off. I think defenses have figured out that when the Ravens go to play action you send 4 and drop 7, because the OL can be beaten with 4 and if you have 7 to block 4 or 5 you're going to win.

Flacco is just not as good as Rivers used to be or Brees it's not that hard to figure out.

I said it in Houston, it's a mistake trying to run a hurry up no huddle with a guy who, even the staunchest coddlers will admit, struggles to process information quickly especially in the face of pressure. What did we see after the bye week? A reining in of the hurry up. It's not a mystery. It's the elephant in the room that most people don't like to admit but halfway through year 5 we have a QB who is not good enough to lead a truly prolific offense.

Flacco has had a better career under Cam Cameron than Drew Brees at this point, it's inarguably established by the facts. He is better in every statistical category and if you go back and watch Brees on tape at that time he looks nothing like what he became in New Orleans. In fact, he looked just like a shorter, weaker-armed version of Flacco, because all QBs look the same under Cam.

One thing that goes unsaid in all this talk about making post-snap reads is that most of the top QBs like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and many others are dropping back and throwing timing patterns to their first reads 20 or 25 times a GAME at a minimum. In their offenses the entire system is built to get that first read open, get the ball out quickly, and set up the next play. Tom Brady is dropping back 3 steps and throwing the ball to Wes Welker as soon as that 3rd foot comes down. He doesn't even need to make a 2nd or 3rd read because the play is already decided before the snap and the route is there.

Alex Smith doesn't even make reads in his offense. If he drops back and the 1st read isn't there he is going to get the ball out to a dumpoff instantly. Nobody criticizes him for that because it's smart football, but we don't have a modern passing scheme and we're not used to seeing that kind of football. In the Ravens offense, the reason you see Flacco drop back and hold the ball so much is that the plays are so simple that the defense can take away the 1st read constantly. We also don't have an Antonio Gates or Wes Welker who is going to get open despite good coverage time after time because they are SO good. We have good players, but not THAT good.

[leachisabeast]

Not buying that we run the ball better without Leach, people just look at the YPC and say oh that extra half a yard every carry must mean we don't run the ball better, so why have Leach out there? The reason we run the ball for more yards without Leach at times, is because teams are thinking pass all the way, with Leach in the game, teams load the box because otherwise Leach is going to piledrive smaller LB's or safeties. Anyway, all you have to look at is both the Rice and Pierce TD's on Sunday, and most of it was because Leach gave them a near clear passage way.

[RavensNTerps]

The Ravens actually run the football better without Leach on the field than with him. When Leach is in the game, the defense only has to defend two plays: an iso run up the middle behind Leach's block, and a play-action pass designed to either take a deep shot to Torrey or throw underneath on a TE curl. When Leach is on the sideline the Ravens are a much more multiple, varied offense.

I'm not criticizing Leach for that, he is the best lead blocker in all of football--it's Cam Cameron's fault. When an offense is this easy to figure out, you are going to have more guys at the point of attack almost every play and that means failure.



Actually when the Ravens go to play action out of the I formation Leach does a good bit of pass blocking. When they roll Flacco out they usually have Leach slide out with him as a sort of personal protector. His assignment is on any blitzer that gets through the OL unblocked and he does a very good job of it, when the defense only rushes 4 he leaks out for a dump off. I think defenses have figured out that when the Ravens go to play action you send 4 and drop 7, because the OL can be beaten with 4 and if you have 7 to block 4 or 5 you're going to win.



Flacco has had a better career under Cam Cameron than Drew Brees at this point, it's inarguably established by the facts. He is better in every statistical category and if you go back and watch Brees on tape at that time he looks nothing like what he became in New Orleans. In fact, he looked just like a shorter, weaker-armed version of Flacco, because all QBs look the same under Cam.

One thing that goes unsaid in all this talk about making post-snap reads is that most of the top QBs like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and many others are dropping back and throwing timing patterns to their first reads 20 or 25 times a GAME at a minimum. In their offenses the entire system is built to get that first read open, get the ball out quickly, and set up the next play. Tom Brady is dropping back 3 steps and throwing the ball to Wes Welker as soon as that 3rd foot comes down. He doesn't even need to make a 2nd or 3rd read because the play is already decided before the snap and the route is there.

Alex Smith doesn't even make reads in his offense. If he drops back and the 1st read isn't there he is going to get the ball out to a dumpoff instantly. Nobody criticizes him for that because it's smart football, but we don't have a modern passing scheme and we're not used to seeing that kind of football. In the Ravens offense, the reason you see Flacco drop back and hold the ball so much is that the plays are so simple that the defense can take away the 1st read constantly. We also don't have an Antonio Gates or Wes Welker who is going to get open despite good coverage time after time because they are SO good. We have good players, but not THAT good.

Sooo it's Cam's fault that Joe has no sense of timing on three five or seven step drops?

[BigPlayReceiver]

Joe or Cammie?
Which one is the problem?

How does a mechanic or engineer do it? I think it's a process of isolation and elimination.

For the Ravens, we won't ever be able to tell until they are separated...and since we absolutely know (from Stevie's sound bites over the last year or two) that Flacco isn't going anywhere, you gotta remove Cammie from the equation. If not then you are a hopeful fool (I don't think that's Stevie), or you are running with the assumption that with Joe and Cammie together, we can win it all. But that assumption has only become more foolish over time, because there's that annoying and constant element of life called reality.

And our reality includes our recent history of failing to execute in the playoffs. Yet, even using that history as an excuse to keep Joe and Cammie together works, but it only really works in a world where players never age, never retire, never sign elsewhere, and never hit the IR.

[leachisabeast]

Can you really win a championship with guys like Cutler and Schaubb and Flacco? Sounds good in theory but I keep seeing those elite guys hoist the trophy. It's become a QB league and I'm not sure a 'good' QB can win it all

I think you certainly can. Eli Manning won his first SB when he was playing at arguably a below average level, while his team around him was very talented and could make up for it. Same for Bens first SB, the Steelers where also a power run based team that were very talented on defense. You can even go back and look at the likes of Tampa Bay and even us with Trent Difler. Chicago also made the SB with Rex Grossman as their starting QB. Houston and Chicacgo are IMO currently the best teams in the league and are most likely at this point to meet in the SB, and look at who their starting QB's are, certainly a lot better than Rex Grossman and Trent Difler, and a notch above what Ben and Eli were in their first SB wins, but not really top 5 guys.

[Ravens44]

Sooo it's Cam's fault that Joe has no sense of timing on three five or seven step drops?

Joe was throwing timing patterns to Mason from day 1, no problem.
It is really simple.
If everytime you go to pass and EVERY ONE of your receivers are blanketed because the routes are basic and EVERY team KNOWS it...it is VERY DIFFICULT to succeed. This type of offensive strategy HAS put every Raven receiver at a disadvantage and the performance of the QB and the team suffers.

Watch a Steeler game and tell me how every Steeler receiver is WIDE OPEN every play.
They have been WIDE OPEN during the same time span including with Hines Ward who had nowhere near the speed of our Smith and Jones.

"The Ravens do the least with the most." Steve Young

[Captain Silver]

"The Ravens do the least with the most." Steve Young

I have said this since the start of the Harbaugh era.