Secretary of Defense Kerry?

[HoustonRaven]

I am sorry but Media Matters is no more a credible source for information on SBV than the Media Research Center would be on the Libya attacks.

[ActualSpamBot]

I am sorry but Media Matters is no more a credible source for information on SBV than the Media Research Center would be on the Libya attacks.

Instead of reading the link and then dismissing it, read the article and point out what they said that is even a debatable opinion. Everything in that article is factual information. Not to mention, they linked to the actual documents. Ignore their commentary and read the first hand sources as I suggested.

[HoustonRaven]

Instead of reading the link and then dismissing it, read the article and point out what they said that is even a debatable opinion. Everything in that article is factual information. Not to mention, they linked to the actual documents. Ignore their commentary and read the first hand sources as I suggested.

And I have, but from a relatively unbiased source ....

http://www.factcheck.org/republican-...ar_record.html

Pretty even handed break down of what was said what was not said. Even they concluded "At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth".

So it's about which way you lean it would seem.

[ActualSpamBot]

A group funded by the biggest Republican campaign donor in Texas began running an attack ad Aug. 5 in which former Swift Boat veterans claim Kerry lied to get one of his two decorations for bravery and two of his three purple hearts.
But the veterans who accuse Kerry are contradicted by Kerry's former crewmen, and by Navy records.

That's also in the fact check article.

In fact, the vast majority of that article is a virtual repeat of the media matters one. Multiple original sources disproving or providing strong evidence against the Swift Boat claims.

[HoustonRaven]

[/B]
That's also in the fact check article.

In fact, the vast majority of that article is a virtual repeat of the media matters one. Multiple original sources disproving or providing strong evidence against the Swift Boat claims.

No, it's not. Read it again. Many of the books sources have stuck to their original story. Yes, there were a few who backed off "some" of the claims, but by and large, the folks in the book stuck to their stories.

MM points out the initial and early contradictions but makes no mention to the follow ups where clarifications were made that were still very damning to Kerry. For example, his former commanding officer still believes to this day he shot someone in the back and does not deserve the medals he received.

[ActualSpamBot]

People with agendas sticking to their stories decades after the fact are hardly more convincing to me than official military documentation.

Did you give equal credence to the people who reported that Mitt Romney was a bully in high school who assaulted a gay student even when there was no documentation to back them up? If not, why are these people with an ax to grind more believable than those people?

[HoustonRaven]

People with agendas sticking to their stories decades after the fact are hardly more convincing to me than official military documentation.

Did you give equal credence to the people who reported that Mitt Romney was a bully in high school who assaulted a gay student even when there was no documentation to back them up? If not, why are these people with an ax to grind more believable than those people?

Since I didn't vote for Romney, I had no opinion either way on those allegations.

And I could say the same thing about your source. They have "an ax to grind" as well and they left out much information just to make their "case".

[ActualSpamBot]

My source was and remains, the original Navy documents. I went with the MM article simply because it linked to them in a coherent manner, listing each relevant one next to the Swift Boat claim.

[HoustonRaven]

Clearly, you've never served.

Citations that go along with medals are flowery to say the least. I have an ARCOM in my file that says, during my stay at Ft. Leonard Wood, I served in the highest ethical standards and bravery commensurate with the best traditions of the Army.

Wanna know what I did? I sat on a gate for 2 weeks and while I was supposed to be checking ID's as soldiers drove past, I racked up a $300 calling card bill, calling my girlfriend back in MD.

It's all about who writes, not the why. Point being, those "documents" to which MM links can be taken in about a dozen different direction when, like they do, do not provide the full context of the situation.

And your MM source does not discredit Corsi or the others in the book. It's debunking an FNC report about the book.

[JAB1985]

Nothing that Corsi wrote has ever been dis-proven so you're going to need to back this up, JAB.

As for medals being handed out, well, yes, medals were handed out left and right during Vietnam. It was a highly unpopular war and medals were issued like candy to keep morale up. The NYT did a piece way back in the day on this very phenomenon and it was the catalyst for why many Vets at the time were throwing them away. They did not think they deserved them.

You've decided to believe Kerry's version and that's your right. But that's not license to then say what Corsi et all wrote was dishonest, regardless what wiki is telling you. Dozens of people have come forward to give their version of the events. Kerry managed, at most, 3 to back up his.

Dozens to support? I just keep seeing the same two guys that wrote it or the ones that wrote the letters of commendation 30 years ago for said medals. Why lie about it than? whats the agenda? right before an election, you change your story? you happen to be linked to the guy hes running against and/or are a right wing extremist. Thats to convient. Wiki is not my source for discrediting it, but looking up either Corsi or Oneill and its just one site after another discrediting them. The site below pretty much contradicts anything the group has said and explains its funding as well. Military documents, eye witness accounts, and uncovered lies and blatant Partisanship as well as prejudice against catholics, jews, and muslims.

http://www.factcheck.org/republican-...ar_record.html

None of those in the attack ad by the Swift Boat group actually served on Kerry's boat. And their statements are contrary to the accounts of Kerry and those who served under him.

this doesnt back up that "his own swifties hated him". the ones that actually were closest to him liked him, and supported his claims in entirety. the only ones that didnt, were from other boats and "did not serve with Kerry in vietnam." is that dis-proving? technically no, but id say there is a lot more evidence in support than against. It is to each their own, i just dislike Propaganda being spread as gospel.

EDIT: Just saw you posted the same link, hard to imagine we come away from the same article with such obvious differences. To me that entire fact checking article was debunking the men behind the ads and their claims but came to a conclusion that well never know the truth entirely, which I agree with. In my opinion more evidence overwhelmingly points to Kerry being right, which is why i believe that and find it hard to support the characters involved that started the negative campaign.

[JAB1985]

For example, his former commanding officer still believes to this day he shot someone in the back and does not deserve the medals he received.

He also did not receive the award for that. read the article again. He shot a guy running away with a rocket launcher but the medal was not for that incident but his actions in whole. Thats not even pointing out that hes publicly supported Kerry's medal as late as 2003. 2004, presidential candidate, he changed his story.

The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star "for simply pursuing and dispatching" the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see "supporting documents" at right.) The citations - based on what Elliott wrote up at the time - dwell mostly on Kerry's decision to attack rather than flee from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

if he got the award for attacking instead of fleaing, shooting a guy would be considered attacking, no? and its funny that its basically saying others did flea which is why he stood out for his actions. I dont blame Elliot much, he wasnt there and obviously depending on who you listen to it must be somewhat convincing either way, apparently. I dont like the thought of questioning any Soldiers military record, but when theres a clear gray area i shouldn't be expected to go with the "right's" version or be labeled an "uninformed libby".

[AirFlacco]

You didn't read Gardner's comments above, an eye witness. Kerry threatened the entire crew. When asked if he did he said he
couldn't remember. Of course not.

Then there was the officer who said he didn't follow the rules of engagement when he killed the child and his father.
It's proven he falsified reports. He only served 4 months when everyone else did a year and most officers did more
than one tour.

You haven't provided any witnesses to the contrary. You can only use a fact check link which is just as opinionated as
the next guy while I'm looking at pics of his in Hanoi's museum honoring him as a fellow commie. Continue to be blind
to the situation.


Geesh.

[JAB1985]

You didn't read Gardner's comments above, an eye witness. Kerry threatened the entire crew. When asked if he did he said he
couldn't remember. Of course not.

Non-credible and has been caught in numerous lies. Article

he has admitted that he -- just like the rest of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claiming that Kerry is lying about his medals -- was not present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of any medals or any of Kerry's three Purple Hearts.

He cant keep his own lies straight as numerous times, hes said something only to contradict it later in the same interview. The only SVBT memer that was present for any of Kerrys medals, supports him (see below).

He only served 4 months when everyone else did a year and most officers did more than one tour.

He served time on the USS Gridley prior to his time served in Vietnam, which did account for. He requested duty in Vietnam during a time people were draft dodging. He only commanded for 4 months a swift boat, but his service was a full tour plus.

You haven't provided any witnesses to the contrary.

Bill Rassaman (the guy he saved for his silver star, also registered republican FWIW), Fred Short (a crew member of Kerrys boat), Del Sandusky (2nd in command), Larry Clayton Lee (SBVT member who was the only member that was there that day) as well as numerous others you choose to ignore. See the first quote and realize, none of the claims they have made against his medals are based on eye witness claims. Even the Rice pile, which was friendly fire, isnt refuted. They were burning them so the Viet Cong didnt have them. Purple hearts were handed out for friendly fire. His Service ended early, not because "the swifties hated him" or "threatened to kill him", but because of our own policies that any serviceman thats been injured 3 times can be reassigned. He could have stayed, but chose not to. After 3 injuries in 4 months, after volunteering for it in the first place when others chose to run away, i think he earned the right to decide. you can make an argument he should have stayed maybe, but not many would have. "million dollar wound" isnt a phrase because people were gung-ho about being there.

You can only use a fact check link which is just as opinionated as the next guy while I'm looking at pics of his in Hanoi's museum honoring him as a fellow commie. Continue to be blind to the situation.

the fact check link is a convenient source that takes multiple sources and puts them into a timeline with quotes. Its not biased, and even concludes, more than likely rightfully, that the matter isnt definitive either way.

The Hanoi Picture is real, but misused by propaganda websites like the ones you posted, that claim its honoring him as a communist. No, its a picture that says he came there with a delegation to search for what happened to POWs and MIAs. nothing more, nothing less.

Theres what I call "propaganda" websites for both sides, which are really part of the problem in this country. as well as pundits that simply lie and stretch truth to fit whatever their agenda is. Not much different than politicians. If you choose to believe it, so be it, but im not a supporter of either, just the truth that typically lies in between.

[Sgt CouchPotato]

right wing goons still believe swift boat garbage??

the quintessential definition of a smear campaign and you still believe it 8 years later? talk about hook, line, and sinker...

i'll believe the words of the servicemen who actually served w/ kerry

[AirFlacco]

Non-credible and has been caught in numerous lies. Article

He cant keep his own lies straight as numerous times, hes said something only to contradict it later in the same interview. The only SVBT memer that was present for any of Kerrys medals, supports him (see below).


He served time on the USS Gridley prior to his time served in Vietnam, which did account for. He requested duty in Vietnam during a time people were draft dodging. He only commanded for 4 months a swift boat, but his service was a full tour plus.



Bill Rassaman (the guy he saved for his silver star, also registered republican FWIW), Fred Short (a crew member of Kerrys boat), Del Sandusky (2nd in command), Larry Clayton Lee (SBVT member who was the only member that was there that day) as well as numerous others you choose to ignore. See the first quote and realize, none of the claims they have made against his medals are based on eye witness claims. Even the Rice pile, which was friendly fire, isnt refuted. They were burning them so the Viet Cong didnt have them. Purple hearts were handed out for friendly fire. His Service ended early, not because "the swifties hated him" or "threatened to kill him", but because of our own policies that any serviceman thats been injured 3 times can be reassigned. He could have stayed, but chose not to. After 3 injuries in 4 months, after volunteering for it in the first place when others chose to run away, i think he earned the right to decide. you can make an argument he should have stayed maybe, but not many would have. "million dollar wound" isnt a phrase because people were gung-ho about being there.



the fact check link is a convenient source that takes multiple sources and puts them into a timeline with quotes. Its not biased, and even concludes, more than likely rightfully, that the matter isnt definitive either way.

The Hanoi Picture is real, but misused by propaganda websites like the ones you posted, that claim its honoring him as a communist. No, its a picture that says he came there with a delegation to search for what happened to POWs and MIAs. nothing more, nothing less.

Theres what I call "propaganda" websites for both sides, which are really part of the problem in this country. as well as pundits that simply lie and stretch truth to fit whatever their agenda is. Not much different than politicians. If you choose to believe it, so be it, but im not a supporter of either, just the truth that typically lies in between.

Like HR said, you gotta prove your stuff. You don't even believe eye witness reports.You say they're lies but don't
believe it. Fellow officers have testified vs Kerry but you know so much more than they. Even the Globe suppressed its own evidence they found that Kerry was guilty of killing the kid in the back.

It's a fact that he headed the VEts vs the War. It's a fact that he met with their delegates at the peace treaty and you
can't prove otherwise.

We've shown our proof from eye witnesses who have testified and pics of the actual photos of him in their museum.

Keep dreaming.

[JAB1985]

Like HR said, you gotta prove your stuff. You don't even believe eye witness reports.You say they're lies but don't
believe it. Fellow officers have testified vs Kerry but you know so much more than they. Even the Globe suppressed its own evidence they found that Kerry was guilty of killing the kid in the back.

It's a fact that he headed the VEts vs the War. It's a fact that he met with their delegates at the peace treaty and you
can't prove otherwise.

We've shown our proof from eye witnesses who have testified and pics of the actual photos of him in their museum.

Keep dreaming.

Apparently you dont believe eye witness reports. I gave you just as many or more that refute their and your claims. Seeing as none of them were present and have said as much, who are your eye witnesses? Which youre not only choose not to believe but to not even acknowledge i gave them. Not to mention the article that quotes his commanding officer as supporting his silver star all the way up until 2003, but conviently flopped when he ran for president.

Nobody is refuting that his picture is in a museum or that he was part of the group that went over there to meet with delegates, which was to find out what happened to pows and mias. Whats wrong with that?

We have museums with pictures of hitler in them... We must be nazis since we clearly honor him.

I cant wrap my head around if you actually believe this non sense or if youre just trying to get a rise out of people.

[HoustonRaven]

Trap, I never told anyone they had the prove their stuff.

As JAB points out, this is still a relatively unsettled debate so please do not mischaracterize what I was saying.

I do not share you're die hard allegiance to everything GOP and this matter is included.

[AirFlacco]

Sorry HR, I didn't mean to mis-represent you but I was referring
to this quote plus your comments on media matters.

Nothing that Corsi wrote has ever been dis-proven so you're going to need to back this up, JAB.

And he still hasn't using less than proven internet links.

I was drafted during that war when most of my senior class joined the Guard to beat the draft. Didn't go over as I said many times
but I showed up. After being trained to kill commies, I ended up
at APG in supplies handing stuff out. Years later I went back to the Ordnance Center and School as a civilian in-and out-processing allied soldiers that were trained on our latest tanks and vehicles. I was invited to visit returning students in Greece, Turkey, Egypt and Asia. The commendation in my file reads: FOR OUTSTANDING SUPPORT FOR INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS. YOUR HARD WORK WILL BE FELT WORLD WIDE. 1990-1991.

Then I was promoted to the Edgewood Area.

I guarantee you my work as a civilian for the Army for 27 years was
far more important like when our agency sent a sister unit to
Bagdad to test the drinking water to make it safe before the rest of the army got there. They needed my reports that were filed from there decades ago. I just supervised automating millions of them and at the time was the only one who could call them up in a short time so I was with them. I didn't carry any weapons as a civilian
but two body guards were assigned to me at all times in Iraq.

No one knew we were in the neighborhood.

[AirFlacco]

Back to that unsettled Kerry debate HR. At least one lie was settled by Kerry himself. If all the swifties lied, they weren't the only ones.

Kerry admitted to lying about being in Cambodia. He has admitted that the Cambodia story was a lie. How in the world can you be 15,000 miles away from home on Christmas Eve and not know exactly where you were?? He was on the river a total of 4 months and one of those 120 days was Christmas Eve. In 1968 was there a bigger day of the year than Christmas Eve and you were a scared and lonely boy in a war and now you say your "seared" memory of was not sure where you were??

Not to mention, no US patrol boat or craft was ordered into
Cambodia when he said he was there.

The breadth of this lie cannot be measured!!!


The swifties believed so much in what they said and were doing that they kept him from being president. That many cant be wrong including a retired rear Admiral who co-founded their group plus a medal of honor winner.

As for those records you mentioned, the ones Kerry filed were
falsified as officers have suggested so if you want to go in and
try to find dirt on him, officially, you cant.

It's still a fact he only served 4 months while most everyone
served a year, that survived. Many officers if not most served
two tours of duty.

"Swift-Boating" does not equal smearing. Swift-Boating means exposing hard truths about corrupt Democrats which has the libbies freaking out.

John Kerry was a combat veteran. So was Benedict Arnold.

[Dade]

The basis of Trap's arguement is Kerry service record is complete BS. Any official record to the contrary is obiviously falsified.

This line of reasoning lets one side make any points its wants, while at the same time painting the other side as liars who falsify records.

Sorry but enough people who actually served with Kerry and THE DOD OFFICIAL RECORD support that Kerry served his country honorable and was wounded in battle.

I'm sure if there's one or two people who served with me that probably don't think to highly of me. Everybody has old co workers and/or bosses that they had bad relations with. If someone who served with me were to tell you Dade never really went to Iraq and my official record was falsified, would you believe them?