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  1. #13

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league



    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    This is what I've been trying to say, but according to some people around here we are just average in this department.
    It seems we have more issues of Flacco and the WRs not being on same page. WRs running the wrong routes or Flacco overthrowing WRs.




  2. #14

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    It doesn't show "full effect," but the onus is on you to prove that our team drops more meaningful passes than the rest of the teams. There is no reason to believe our team is any different than others when it comes to the type and meaningfulness of passes that we drop. At least no reason until someone provides one that makes sense or is supported by evidence.
    Shouldn't the onus be more on you to prove that your theory is correct, rather than for me to discredit it before you've even provided your evidence, other than faulty statistics from PFF?
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  3. #15

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Shouldn't the onus be more on you to prove that your theory is correct, rather than for me to discredit it before you've even provided your evidence, other than faulty statistics from PFF?
    Not at all. I have no "theory," you do. You are the one making the special affirmative claim. You are asserting that our receivers are special in some way. Or rather our "drops" are different "drops" than other teams "drops." That is the claim to be supported. You cannot ask me to prove a negative (that our WRs/drops are not special).




  4. #16

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    This is what I've been trying to say, but according to some people around here we are just average in this department.
    And i already said the data is wrong when they say boldin has one and had 2-3 in one game. Wish to take pff as gospel youre entitled. I dont. They could have just as easily missed or counted one another way. Its opinion as to whats catchable and whats not. Watching other teams. Were average imo. Thats a good thing when we were so bad last year.
    -JAB




  5. #17

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Boldin actually hanging onto balls is the story, hope it continues.




  6. #18

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    And i already said the data is wrong when they say boldin has one and had 2-3 in one game. Wish to take pff as gospel youre entitled. I dont. They could have just as easily missed or counted one another way. Its opinion as to whats catchable and whats not. Watching other teams. Were average imo. Thats a good thing when we were so bad last year.
    The data isn't "wrong," it is subjective like you said. They likely count drops as passes that should be caught X% of the time (very high, maybe 95%), or by Xth best WR in the league (very low, like worst WR in league), etc. Much like errors in baseball. A leaping dive that gets both hands on the ball is probably not considered a drop. I crossing pattern where the ball is thrown way behind the WR at full speed where the DB gets a hand in there as it arrives, etc, isn't going to be a drop to PFF, yet people here will whine about it (usually to defend the QB).

    But the fact remains, there is no evidence whatsoever that PFF is applying different standards to different teams/WRs. So you complaining about Boldin's total being lower than you would make it, just means you would have similar complaints about all WRs (and have to raise their totals as well).




  7. #19

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The data isn't "wrong," it is subjective like you said. They likely count drops as passes that should be caught X% of the time (very high, maybe 95%), or by Xth best WR in the league (very low, like worst WR in league), etc. Much like errors in baseball. A leaping dive that gets both hands on the ball is probably not considered a drop. I crossing pattern where the ball is thrown way behind the WR at full speed where the DB gets a hand in there as it arrives, etc, isn't going to be a drop to PFF, yet people here will whine about it (usually to defend the QB).

    But the fact remains, there is no evidence whatsoever that PFF is applying different standards to different teams/WRs. So you complaining about Boldin's total being lower than you would make it, just means you would have similar complaints about all WRs (and have to raise their totals as well).
    Possibly. Or since its subjective they could classify to similar catches differently. I dont know that, only theyre data collectors do. And again my definition may be different but it could also swing one way or another because of that. Weve had this conversation, i can see both sides but to me boldins werent questionable passes or uncatchable balls. If those dont count i cant respect the means of the data. Personal opinion, but as much as i disagree with i cant sat its definitive either way.
    -JAB




  8. #20

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Not at all. I have no "theory," you do. You are the one making the special affirmative claim. You are asserting that our receivers are special in some way. Or rather our "drops" are different "drops" than other teams "drops." That is the claim to be supported. You cannot ask me to prove a negative (that our WRs/drops are not special).
    Why can't I ask you to show why our drops aren't any different when you made that claim and the OP started this thread, based on that claim?

    There is an old football saying amongst WRs that if you get two hands on it, you need to catch it. PFF has decided to make it's own rule and some are trying to use this new idea of a drop to justify this claim that the Ravens don't deal with more drops than most teams around the league, or that they are not impacted similarly. That fails to go into when the drop takes place, what point of the game, etc. You can't just take that out and put together a claim, because those are elements of the game of football itself, that can't be measured.

    It's like measuring a sack, going up against Oneil Cousins, on first and five, the same as a sack going up against Joe Thomas on third and long.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #21

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    And i already said the data is wrong when they say boldin has one and had 2-3 in one game. Wish to take pff as gospel youre entitled. I dont. They could have just as easily missed or counted one another way. Its opinion as to whats catchable and whats not. Watching other teams. Were average imo. Thats a good thing when we were so bad last year.
    If you read the article they define a drop as a ball that is reasonable to catch for the receiver - they don't go by the official game book, I think. It's possible those drops didn't meet their criteria.




  10. #22

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    IMO it's garbage.

    Drop count is a horrible statistic since no one can agree on what is a drop.
    What is "Reasonable to catch"? Is that adjusted by the WR based on talent level? Has Calvin Johnson dropped 9 easy catches or 9 balls that he usually catches.
    Also what is the WR can't get separation? Our problem is that our WRs get locked down too often so a lot the catches they have to make will be heavily contested.
    360 tag: Ahhhhhhhhnold




  11. #23
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    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Somehow I get the feeling that had the stats showed the Ravens last in the league in this statistic, there wouldn't be as many fans questioning the validity of them.




  12. #24

    Re: Ravens have the best dropped passes rate in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Why can't I ask you to show why our drops aren't any different when you made that claim and the OP started this thread, based on that claim?

    There is an old football saying amongst WRs that if you get two hands on it, you need to catch it. PFF has decided to make it's own rule and some are trying to use this new idea of a drop to justify this claim that the Ravens don't deal with more drops than most teams around the league, or that they are not impacted similarly. That fails to go into when the drop takes place, what point of the game, etc. You can't just take that out and put together a claim, because those are elements of the game of football itself, that can't be measured.

    It's like measuring a sack, going up against Oneil Cousins, on first and five, the same as a sack going up against Joe Thomas on third and long.
    The same reason you can't claim that the Ravens play with special footballs then when challenged about the claim respond with "prove the footballs being used in Ravens games are the same as footballs in all the other games."

    Doesn't matter about old rules or not. What matters is that there is no evidence whatsoever that our WRs drop more balls than others. None. In fact, the evidence shows they drop less, but conveniently you claim the evidence is tainted. What evidence do you provide that the inconvenient (to you) evidence is tainted? None.

    Your last sentence just means stats are subjective, which everyone has stipulated. It does not mean that subjective means one team gets screwed or helped more than others. For that to be believed, there needs to be an actual argument made with actual support. So far, none.




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